(EDIT: Ok guys, it’s 1:00 PM PST and the comments are now closed, so we can go through the rest and pull some for the show. Some great, great stuff in here. I think this might become a regular thing. -Arthur )
Greetings all. We’ll be recording Episode 7 of Rebel FM tomorrow afternoon for a Wednesday night release, and this time we want to try something a little different for the discussion segment. With the debut of The Lost and the Damned’s Penis Extravaganza yesterday, we thought it might be interesting to ask you all about “mature content” in games.
To start with, we feel like there are two ways to do more extreme content: gratuitously, and respectfully in service to the game and story and atmosphere. In other words, there are games that handle content maturely, and games that throw a lot of gore and profanity at you and call it “Mature Content” on the ratings sticker. Chuf feels like a good example of the first kind would be specific points in “The Darkness”, because he felt that it served a purpose, and added a gravity to a lot of what was going on. I feel like an example of the second would be, say, Ninja Gaiden 2, which was absolutely gratuitous.
So, what do you all think? What are some examples of both, and what are you ok with? What’s bothered you, and what do you feel has been portrayed unfairly by the media at large? It can be violence, gore, language, or sex (or whatever else you guys can think of that you feel falls into the topic). Leave your comments here, and we’ll go through them by tomorrow at 1:00 PM PST to discuss them on the show.
When I see a “Mature Content” sticker, I don’t think it as meaning “this content is Mature”. I see it as “Mature people can handle this content”. Not that they’d “appreciate” it or “like” it, but that they can “deal with it”. So, whether it’s tasteful or gratuitous, I don’t think I can hold it against anyone. Unnecessary gore and sex haven’t ruined a game for me yet.
Then again, I’ve never given WET a look beyond cover art I’ve seen. No idea what it’s even about. Must be my subconscious at work.
Mature content has its place, but many games misuse it. The best example I can think of is Vampire: the Masquerade: Bloodlines. In some cases, the adult content was a huge part of the game. The Jeanette and Velvet Velour characters used their sexuality as a means of convincing you to do tasks for them. Later in the game, though, there would be impossible geysers of blood when characters were stabbed, and heads would get lobbed off with little effort.
I would like to see more of the former than the latter. As long as games revel in what is essentially “toilet humor” for adult content (fart jokes for the sake of fart jokes, cursing for the sake of cursing, and so on) they will continue to turn off players over the age of 17.
An exception to this, though, is any game with a non-realistic, stylized art production. MadWorld uses the contrast of a black and white game world and red blood for artistic effect. Team Fortress 2 has JC Lyendecker-styled characters with “meat” instead of innards. These elements are there for artistic purposes and make an already unreal game feel less realistic.
What would you define as mature content in a game? The fact that there is sex, violence and course language? Or is it that a game covers a large variety of story elements in which a require a mature outlook to understand. I’d say fallout 3 is more of a “mature” game then Gears 2. Due to the fact that in fallout one must consider their actions and what the outcome will be. Not just blood and crude language.
I Like it when its meaningful. When people swear in real life and you go “oh shit” thats when its good . That’s the reason you cant take games like GOW serious. One minute Doms Chainsawing people making smart remarks then hes crying about his wife.. It falls flat. I hate excessive Swearing nudity. I dont mind the violence. But my motto is always in moderation b/c when it does happen its more shocking then
So after all the drama that went on with Amazon cutting Rapelay (While still offering 7 version of Manhunt), what do you guys think about regional sensibilities dictating what is and isn’t appropriate in video games? Europe tends to be much more lax with vaginas showing on dryads, though blood makes them cringe. Americans freak out over a nipple, although realistic dismemberment is a feature. Japan seems to be off the deep end, and yet the rain of fiery brimstone doesn’t seem to have wiped it off the map. Is there an inherent hypocrisy regarding video game legislature? Can we really say that violence in games doesn’t carry over to real life, but rape would? Wouldn’t parroting that a video game could have serious effects on someones life and make it more likely that they will commit a crime be agreeing with Jack Thompson and Killology and all those fun media articles we regularly scoff at and refute with absolute certainty?
Honestly I understand there are sites like Whattheyplay to inform parents of games and what they contain, and of course there are the ratings but those can be vauge and misrepresenting. So I really feel like if a game wants to be gratuitous just to be so then let them, it’s their game, we don’t tell pornographers to stop making their media. I do think that there’s tasteful and distasteful ways to do it, but you know unfortunatly there’s always a market for the distasteful stuff.
I think video games should serve as playgrounds for the kind of things that are not accepted in society. The most appealing games to me are the ones that include sexual and violent content. I don’t find games that involve more pedestrian activities nearly as amusing or satisfying. I think that at the core of human beings lies a latent animal nature which is antisocial, but needs to be quelled in some way. The purpose of video games then is to allow violent and sexual activity that is outside the norm to be examined in a nondestructive manner. Hopefully, video games take the place of public hangings and gladiatorial sport.
Sexuality always seems to generate the most backlash in our society, and games have been no exception. Although many games have explored this topic (with varying levels of maturity as I’m sure you’ll cover in the show), one area I’ve never seen games tackle in a serious way is homosexuality. However, as a “semi-casual” gamer with a limited gaming background and unlikely to seek out indie titles free of publisher influence, and as a straight person, I haven’t exactly sought out the subject. Is this something any of you have run across in your gaming careers? When do you think we’ll see a AAA title from a big studio bring the issue to the forefront of a game, rather than only a background or side element?
Keep up the good work gents – I wouldn’t survive my commute without you!
I think a lot of mature content in games just happens to be the art. Something can be labeled mature because when you slice something’s head off, a geyser of blood squirts out. I actually find this childish and suited for 12 year old boys. In my mind, mature content is decision making, tasteful violence(very hard to do),and dark themes. I felt Fallout 3 to be a mature game because I cared about the story and felt that I had some serious decision making to do. The Bloody Mess perk,while hilarious, pulled me out of the story a little bit because when i shot a raider in the arm his or her entire body just blew into smithereens.
I agree with the categorization of mature content into ‘gratuitous’ and ‘respectful’, personally I find the Grand Theft Auto games and the Saints Row games to be a good example of these in action, although I was excited to play the first Saints Row title I didn’t actually play it for more than an hour, this was mainly because I felt that it was a poorly delivered GTA in relation to the atmosphere and the overall satirical nature of the world, the point at which I felt it was too much was when I heard an advert for ‘freckle bitches’ on the radio. I think GTA is able to deliver the same ‘adult’ themed advertisement with a subtlety (or respect for the sake of this discussion) that preserves the comedic nature whilst still carrying the message, Saints Row on the other hand delivered it with all the grace of a drunk gorilla.
It is ironic that any mention of sexuality garners far more attention than gratuitous violence.
I think mature content is at its best when it’s used to shock in unexpected situations. If it’s just an endless barrage of swearing and exploding heads then it gets predictable, but something genuinely out of the blue shocking is very effective. Remember how one of the first things shown of Resident Evil 4 was the infamous ‘Chainsaw kill’ and how much that shocked everyone. Great example of a game using increased violence to good. effect, to heighten the tension and raise the stakes. And I agree with White Silhouette when he says that maturity cannot be defined by gratuity alone. Watching the Overwatch burning bodies in Half-Life 2 is one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever seen in a game, but it didn’t grab headlines. The fact that you even have to look to find it makes it even more effective.
Your point about what is “called” mature content is very interesting. Excessive blood and cussing, toilet humour or throwing in tits for the sake of tits would be better described as “immature” than “mature”
I’m not saying I’m against these things, I loves me some titties and violence but call it what it is. However, gratuitous immaturity does limit what games I will play in front of or with a mixed group of people.
What I consider true mature content would be along the lines of some of the themes in Persona 4. Such as one particular character coming to grips with his sexual orientation or another character accepting her gender identity.
I am looking forward to Heavy Rain since it promises mature content that is meant for adults and not 14-year old boys.
The “Mature Content” label is really only there for a company to avoid, usually unsuccessfully, negative attention and to inform people that they should play at their own risk. Any people offended by such content, have brought it upon themselves and they are fully responsible for any affects it has on them, and/or the people they allowed it to be exposed to. I’m suck of people blaming others for problems they have made for themselves.
I really can’t think of anything that has ever bothered me, I’m so desensitized to violence in games that even the most violent stuff passes over me pretty easily.
In terms of what I would consider gratuitous, I think there are a couple of factors to consider. A game like Gears of War has extreme violence but I wouldn’t consider it gratuitous. Yeah you’re cutting aliens in half, popping their skulls like melons etc but it all feels in-keeping with the world I think. It’s a fucked up world where fucked up stuff happens. It’s an ugly, nasty war and the extreme violence feels like a part of that.
A game I WOULD consider gratuitous would be something like Fallout 3. Yeah the world in Fallout is no less fucked up than the one in Gears but it felt clear to me that in Fallout the developers added a tonne of extreme content for the sake of being violent. It’s one thing to cut a member of the locust hoard in half, it’s another to kill some random human with a pistol and his entire body explode in a literal ‘bloody mess’. Again the violence in Fallout didn’t bother me, but I do think it’s gratuitous. There doesn’t feel like a good reason for the amount of gore in that game, other than Bethesda trying to live up to fans of the previous Fallout games expectations.
Grand Theft Auto IV, oddly enough, seems to be a great example of mature content in a videogame due to the way that it is presented as being a necessary evil, for lack of a better term, while other games would treat violence like a Michael Bay film. The only problem is that gender still seems to be extremely unequal in videogames, as even the “mature” GTA IV has outright abuse towards women (in regards to the kidnapping mission/subsequent abuse of the victim).
Call of Cthulhu uses its gore and violence in ways that contribute meaningfully to the intended game experience (TORN UP LITTLE GIRLS HOLY SHIT)
The Ravenholm level in half-life 2 would not feel the same without blood.
Violence only becomes gratuitous when it loses meaning or like Chuf said, gravity.
Language always bothers me in games when it’s used for no real reason. Maybe because voice actors tend to emphasize their s- and f- bombs more than normal people do in real speech. If it’s not a mid-battle exclamation, chances are it’s cringe-worthy.
As for sex, well…
Mass Effect? Classy.
The only other example of sex in games that stands out to me is the spike-tv boobage marketing. Final Fantasy X-2, what the fuck? Yay bikini girls in frozen mountains and random hot springs when the world needs to be saved! If there’s anything that needs to be grown out of it’s that. Give these characters clothes they would actually wear.
Right now I think too many companies are using “mature” as a bullet point to sell the game.
There’s something to be said about the definition of mature and the actual usage. Of course, some topics aren’t meant for a younger audience, but this isn’t indicative of the content being, in any way, “mature”, in the most literal sense.
Most of us have had the experience of watching hellishly violent movies for fun during our early teens; there isn’t anything particularly harmful in this, because the usage of gore in these types of films is not meant to inflame hateful emotions. Generally speaking, of course. There’s a difference between Friday the 13th Part whatever and the opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan, though both contain severed limbs and the like.
Ultimately it comes down to intent and how it is applied. In videogaming, we haven’t really had that many examples of violence being used for the sake of negative emotional effect – we can see glimpses of it in games like Manhunt or Condemned, but even then, the concept is still too abstract in terms of graphic imagery. Gore generally doesn’t look realistic in gaming, nor does it provoke shock in the same way as Saving Private Ryan, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for non-graphic mature content.
And this is what the notion of “mature” should evoke. Ideas, rather than elements that are considered societal taboo. There should be a way to differentiate, but, really, much of the problem lies in the youth of video gaming as a narrative medium. Think about it; have we had a single game that dealt with the topic of sex in a profound way? Leisure Suit Larry? Mass Effect? Hot coffee? Not so much.
No doubt we will get there eventually, but it is an area gaming will have to deal with in order to progress in the field of storytelling. Whether or not interactivity makes a difference in contrast to film or literature is, in my view, still up for debate, but there also needs to be room for games that use mature concepts in an effective way. This is especially appropriate when discussing horror games.
As an example, Pathologic.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/10/butchering-pathologic-part-1-the-body/
This is a game that is mature not because of graphic content or language, but because of how it deals with consequence, and creates an oppressive atmosphere. Silent Hill, for instance, works in a similar way – at least thematically.
Gratuitous violence for the sake of entertainment is not as big of a taboo as it was during the 90s. It’s just a different way of doing things, and there should definitely also be room for exploding people into blood sausages with a pump shotgun. But I would like to see a balance between the two, which I’m sure will be more relevant as gaming “matures”.
Even the most violent games dont compare to horror movies. FEAR, SOF, GOW are pretty violent, especially with the dismembering but its pretty obvious its just a game.
Movies are made to look real just like games but its done to a much greater effect. Torture films are so graphic nothing in games compare. I dont know if thats good or bad but i dont think any violence shown in a game is unbearable.
Games with lots of violence are more fun to me, when i shoot a guy and he just dies it gets boring after a while but when deaths can be so varied with ragdoll physics and dismemberment it keeps it unique and exciting. Maybe im a psychopath but thats my thought.
The only game i think is over the top is the game “Rapelay” which recently sparked controversy when it was sold on amazon. If you dont know the game features graphic rape and depicts young girls crying and screaming while being raped. People argue that violent games are a way to blow off steam but a game like this can only strengthen tendencies.
Actually COd5 is another good mention, the dismemberment in game wasent bad but the real footage of executions in the cut scenes was something i didnt want to see. The violence is fine when its virtual but as soon as its made real i dont want to see it
For an example of a game that handles mature content respectfully, I think I would have to go with the torture sequences in MGS3, and while we are at it, the microwave scene in MGS4. I think it is safe to say that both of these offered some disturbing and graphically violent images, but there was a purpose to them in the context of the story. This use of mature themes is not at all akin to what you can see in Leisure Suit Larry.
I think pretty much everyone can remember the “Sex-box” incident, and in my opinion it pretty much captures exactly what is wrong with how games are portrayed in the mainstream media. The idea that sexual actions that take place in a game are somehow exponentially more dangerous than those that occur in a film is ridiculous. As is the idea that if a game contains these mature themes (violence, sex or otherwise) than that is all the game can be about, and the possibility of it having a deeper message is automatically discarded.
I think the reason there is any debate over mature content in video games is because of the problem of definition. “Video games” is a term with a built in history that implies not maturity but rather immaturity of thought. I heard a very interesting interview on NPR sometime last year with a doctor who was researching young peoples’ relationship to video games. According to his findings, teen and pre-teen males have the strongest connection with video games because games offer the boys a world in which they are powerful and in control. This is a specific kind of wish fulfillment that appeals to young men because at that age there is much uncertainty about body image, one’s place in the world and what it means to be a real man’s man.
Regardless of whether or not this is true, I think the world views video games roughly along these lines. What we need, as gamers, is to come up with some different verbiage for games that are actually mature (read: Have complex themes, not boom, boom, rain of blood). It may seem ridiculous, but in this case I think more granularity in definition would be beneficial. Take film as an example. “Films”, “movies” and “flicks” are all the same medium, yet each of these words carries a different connotation as to the expected level of maturity.
As long as “video games” includes base sexual and racial stereotypes, wanton violence and brainless exploitation of sex it will not be respected by the world at large.
Video games needs it’s “film” and it’s “flick” so that we can once and for all leave this silly debate about content and subject matter behind.
defined for me it means a highly ceribal an involved adult emotional content as in gta4 is a very gray game or mass effect it too is rather gray. but when its the likes of gears it. means the grotesict over use of curses and viloence. mature content for .e should and most of the time means an adult involved story. like a lot of mature movies alot are deep meaning full but then theres porn.
While I am in no way against “Mature content” in games, I do agree that there should be a purpose. Now that doesn’t mean that violence and sex don’t sell. Would each God of War game sell as many copies as it does if there were no blood or “mini-games”? Did the ninja strippers in Afro Samurai really add something meaningful? Would GTA have ever even made it to a 6th game if you couldn’t drag a cop out of his car, beat him to death with a bat, take said car, pick up a hooker…oh you get the idea. This isn’t to say that these types of games can’t be fun, I’m just not sure I could ever take them seriously.
This is the same reason I was always confused as to why Jack Thompson attacked ONLY GTA, when its clearly not the only one pushing the envelope.
I am fine with Mature content that helps create the atmosphere that the game needs to draw you in. An example of this is Dead Space. There is a scene where a woman laughs and blows her own head off. It is creepy and it bothers me, which is what is needed in the game. I hate Mature Content that is simply useless and added just to appeal to children that get all giddy from seeing a booby. An example of this is Ninja Gaiden II, Dead or Alive and even Devil May Cry 4. All these games have women with breasts the size of basketballs, and it does nothing but reach out to kids that hide behind magazine racks and peak at the Playboys.
The Witcher is an interesting case of mature content. The use of language and sexual themes makes a lot of sense given the hard-boiled semi-realistic fantasy setting of the game. However, they also introduce the concept of “conquering” women by having sex with them, which even gives you collectibles. The “gameyness” of collecting sex tokens fights against the appropriate realism and makes this weird hybrid where the only rational reaction is to think Eastern Europeans are kind of weird.
I think Andy makes a good point. But I think it is more that games are not viewed as a “mature” art form by most media that prevents truely “mature” themes being used. The “mature” concepts that have so far been discussed, are exploited fully in movies but not games (with the exception of violence) as movies are accepted as an adult art form.
I believe it is not until gaming is no longer considered the domain of the immature that the content can be mature.
Gratuitous sex/violence/language/whatever has to fit. If the game is not trying to take itself too seriously, then going over the top doesn’t bother me. The bouncing breasts of the Dead or Alive gals, the 47 skulls, 33 rib cages, 400 legs and 250 forearms of the MK3 fatalities… All fine and dandy. Others have mentioned the “Bloody Mess” perk in Fallout 3, and I agree… Seems a bit over the top for the sake of being over the top.
As for Wang-Gate ’09, seems a bit lame to me. Though I reserve total judgement until I see the scene myself. Still, it’s almost like Rockstar’s version of tricking someone into clicking on a Goatse link or a 2girls1cup video. All for shock and “because we can”. That kinda stuff turns me off.
My favorite example of this is the Mass Effect debacle. They show the five seconds of sex scene on the news and freak out, but leave off the dozens of conversations leading up to that moment where you’re actually trying to relate to another person and say the right thing to build a relationship.
That game dealt with sex in one of the most mature, respectful ways in any recent game. Instead of a novelty (like God of War’s nudie joke scenes), it actually recreated the tension of talking to girls (or guys) hoping you’d hit it off. I’d love to see more games deal with sexual tension alongside the action and adventure we’re accustomed to. I may not want to play a dating game, but having to seduce the sexy sidekick instead of taking for granted they’ll just fall in love with me for saving the world would make it ten times more interesting.
Side note on the difficulty of the ‘mature’ label: I run into similar problems with the terminology when discussing comics. When I describe something like Preacher or Sandman as an ‘Adult Comic’, it automatically sounds like I’m talking about porn. Sure, there may be some nudity, but there’s also complex stories and characters better than a lot of books out there. In both cases, dealing with mature ideas in what’s still seen by out of touch news anchors as a kids’ medium raises eyebrows when it should be sparking conversations.
It depends entirely on the game you are playing, and how said game presents itself overall.
For action games like Ninja Gaiden I think its totally appropriate to include gratuitous content – whether that be violence or sexual. It fits in with the theme when a game is all about killing anyway.
For games that feature a narrative and that wish to take themselves seriously I think its very important to be respectful about any mature content. It has to fit in with the tone of narrative.
Id say its totally fine to have gratuitous content in a GTA, but not in a game like Mass Effect.
I think Mass Effect is a great example of a game that uses mature content in a may that wasn’t “in your face” or “over the top”. If you can call what happens in the game mature since it’s not any worse than what on television most nights. Fallout 3 is an interesting mix. The death animations are definitely over the top, but the game is filled with mature themes, from the moral decisions to the bleakness of the wastes. Of course there are countless example of game that are mature for the shock value. One of the latest examples might be Afro Samurai. A game that has you killing naked cartoon women in brutal fashion.
I think both types are important because as the more “extreme” content pushes the boundaries the “classier” content has more room to expand and grow.
I’d hate to see mature content go away – it certainly adds gravity to what, otherwise, might be considered a juvenile pastime (I’m counting more complex themes “mature” as well here). What you tend to hear are arguments for or against censorship, though I’d rather eliminate censorship and proliferate information instead.
As far as gratuitous, it depends upon what value it might add. Would it still be considered gratuitous if it adds to the comedic value or over-the-top themes (no Sly Stallone references, please)?
Regarding the introductory note about GTA’s Dickapalooza. I watched the clip and it doesn’t seem like the scene needed to end with a full reveal. It seems to be there purely for shock value. Have to feel for the guy, though, he can’t be sporting more than 7 or 8 polygons.
I think that mature content has a place in some games.
Obviously as you stated some games handle it better than others, but certainly are used to form the story.
One obvious game that comes to mind (most likely because I’m playing it right now) is Metal Gear Solid 4. This game has a large amount of graphic material (any scene with Laughing Squid or any of the other B&B), but it’s all in the service of forwarding the plot. For instance, when Laughing Squid is killing soldiers willy nilly with her tentacles, that could be portrayed as nonsensical, but I believe that it definitely is trying to get across the point of useless violence in war, thus, the violence serves a purpose.
An example of a game that uses violence not to further the story but gameplay is Madworld. The use of violence is purely for fun, but it isn’t a bad thing. This is what is going to make this game fun.
Games like Manhunt can be fun with violence, but end up become somewhat grotesque for no reason (though killing your way out of a game show wasn’t that bad of an excuse).
SO, violence can aid a game and its story, but I believe that too much violence or the necessity of it could end up ruining a game.
I agree with Rick. Mature content done tastefully and for the purpose of enhancing the story, not just gratuitously is good. I agree with his opinions of both Mass Effect and Fallout 3, two games I played and greatly enjoyed. To put mature content in just for the sake of putting mature content in is an insult, in my opinion, to the player.
Honestly, I think one of the best franchises at walking the tight rope between purposeful and gratuitous violence is the ‘Silent Hill’ games. There’s gore, but it’s used in a more cerebral “mind-fuck-ish” kind of way. It serves its purpose and helps give the player a real sense of unease within the game world.
As far as a game that has taken it too far? I don’t think too far is such a bad thing if it’s done to help make the player feel like an action hero bad ass. The violence in a game like Gears of War or God of War is absolutely gratuitous, but it’s an action-adventure style violence, of almost cartoon proportions, and it plays so well with testosterone and everyone’s little inner Spartan. It’s like the difference between a movie like Die Hard and The Exorcist. One is meant to pump you up, the other is meant to get inside your head.
The closest game I can remember to actually making me a little sick was the first Manhunt. Violence of more a gritty and in your face nature has never really set that well with me. Kind of like the Saw films in that regard.
Movies and music are felt by some religions as being too dangerous and harmful to its members, and coming from a religious family, this affects me greatly. Movies like 300 and other R rated movies I have not seen because my church looks down upon them. I fell that as long as the maturity of the content is for the story and not over the top or used as a “Sex sells!!” type of game, I’m totally cool and wish to play those games.
But once more games like this come into play, the media will only show the over the top content. People like my parents or other religious families will start to look at the gaming box in my room and living room as a devils toy to corrupt the younger generations minds. And to be honest, my father on more then one occasion as said that gaming is Satan’s tool to pull people for doing more productive things in life. And don’t mean to brag, but I do sports like XC and track, I’m going to state for a musical instrument and get straight A’s. So if I want to be corrupted by Satan ever once in a while, I think I have earned it and will enjoy it. Just don’t fill up my “unfaithful” gaming time with a penis. Because really, we are here to enjoy game play and a story if the game has one, and other sexually content should be used sparingly just to avoid the media who usually will use such stories as a way to tell parents that we are being corrupt. Which is a joke if you ask me.
I gotta say I’m pretty okay with both. On the gratuitous level, “mature content”, specifically, violence and gore is a method to make the player feel empowered. Fans of Gears of War gleed with joy as they curb stomped their first locust, or chopped them in half with the lancer’s chainsaw.
When I played Madworld at NYCC I felt like I was in a unstoppable badass. When I wrecked havoc in Ratchet and Clank I was mesmerized by the explosions.
“Mature content” is sells games like it sells the latest action flick. The same can be said for horror titles that show up in both mediums as well. There is something inside the greater public that yearns for this type of material, or else it wouldn’t be exploited so often.
The other side, mature content servicing the story, hasn’t been explored enough. Narrative in videogames is still an ongoing development. I haven’t found a single game that has a story that compares to one of my favorite novels. I feel once narrative reaches a literary level, this hole will be filled shortly after.
Finally, I need to make a comment on the latest GTA clip that was released. I respect Rockstar for breaking taboos like its done in the past. It opens the doors for others to explore the interactive medium without getting as much flak by bringing a subject front and center to the public eye. I still feel the random “cock shot” is a shameless scene that was probably included to piss off a few people in the press.
In the age of publishing games that are being expensively printed on discs and physically shipped to retailers, there’s little room for error in judgment with the inclusion of nudity and/or sexual situations (two very different things) that might possibly delay or ban your game from significant portions of your distribution chain. Rockstar knows this first hand.
I believe that this is why we’re seeing this type of socially challenging move by Rockstar now, with their first steps into story-based downloadable content. This type of release does not have the financial risk exposure of a retail release; they have one distributor to assuage instead of dozens.
For Rockstar’s progressive move to be profited upon by games in the near future, any use of male and female nudity or sexual situations will need to be core to the telling of the story and not just a reason to plaster some tits on the game box. It’s likely the majority of the population will be more open minded to more gratuitous type of sexual content over the next 20-30 years as all the old Luddites die off, but it will be small and infrequent baby steps along the way.
I feel like the words mature and adult have been hijacked by the boobs and blood crowd to the detriment of all other facets of maturity. I love boobs and and have feelings for blood, but there is so much more to being adult.
However, when it comes to Lost and Damned throwing a couple of bro-bats out in front of the screen I think their heart is in the right place.
You can see that they obviously think that everyone that complained before about boobs and sex in previous games will be sorta foiled by this.
But the point is, if the imagery is the only M-rated thing in a game, and the themes and characters are not fleshed out in an equally mature way. They missed the point. If only adults are going to play it, raise the themes to adult levels.
Mature Content = Contemporary Taboos + Laws + whatever the fuck else I’m forgetting and trying to turn into an equation.
CT: Porn vs. Kinsey (Sex in reveals unsubstantiated taboos while porn is sort of a circus of sex. I can appreciate both but to some there’s no difference) [sorry no video game example.]
Laws: Grand Theft Auto vs. Any war game (Killing someone in GTA is illegal. Killing someone in a war game is not. If war game has blood then “M” rating, if not then “T”. If GTA has no blood then still “M” rating. I think this is true.)
WETFE: Skate 2 is not a mature game but you are committing criminal acts, technically. – of course one achievement is hitting some one from 60ft up, I don’t know about you but that’s homicide/suicide- If you go online the photos people upload are usually simulating sex (The audience is there). Not a mature game but the ubiquitous mature themed could be applied.
So I’m pretty sure I didn’t answer the question but I wrote some words in a box to try and participate.
Monolith is my favorite developer for violence and how violence appears in video-games. The progress from Blood to Shogo, to Fear and Condemned(I wasn’t playing a lot of games for a few years there), you see an evolution in how violence and gore are used in their games. The Fear and Condemned franchises use their respective mature content to add atmosphere that defines both games.
Beyond the strictly aesthetic purpose though, violence and gore serve another very important function: reward. Very few things match up watching enemies explode in Quake when you have quad damage. Is it mature? no. Is it Tasteful? Absolutely not. Is it Rewarding? yes.
I would like to see more tasteful and tactful uses of mature content in games, but I don’t know how far we can take it. There is a lot of room between “The Evil Dead” and “Shindler’s List”.
I should say that when I say that they will be foiled, I am saying that when it is a penis it is treated with the assumption that is was used for an artistic reason.
Fallout 3: gratuitous, especially when a perk you can earn lets the enemy explode into a bloody mess with a critical hit.
Although, it could serve as contributing to the atmosphere of Fallout: depressing, dirty, visceral, wasteland of DC. The brutality can be thought of as part of this intense environment. This just supports the beauty of the game, in that interpretation is endless with your character.
As far as Rockstar goes, it seems that this is just another stunt to raise controversy and free marketing. They know that all the Jack Thompsons out there will freak out and complain adding hype to the DLC. I do not see this scene as adding to the story either. The scene, shot by shot, is done with tasteful camera angles, but it does not seem too necessary. But, I guess frontal nudity on females in games is not necessary either.
When will mature-rated games reach the point that violence isn’t a prerequisite? When will games move beyond the necessity for violent content used a the core mechanic of the game in order to sell? Will mature games ever reach the point where the explore the concept of violence and its affects on the people that experience it (ala “A History of Violence,” “Irreversible,” “Old Boy” etc…)?
I ask this in relation to the different ways film handles violence. Thinking of the success of movies like Saw and their gracious use of violence, and how those movies carry no emotional, psychological, or social weight to the images they show. Comparing that to film’s like Takashi Miike’s Audition (whose sparing use of graphic violence creates a very affecting and disturbing conclusion), Chan-Wook Park’s “Oldboy” (exploring vengeance through use of both psychological torture and violent means), and David Crooenburg’s “A History of Violence” (the study of how violence affects those who have no experience with it), it’s easy to draw comparison’s between the ways both video games and film handle violence.
Mature, as in “for grown ups”: The entirety of Shadow of the Colossus. The reason I say that is because it relies on some things most games desperately avoid: subtlety and nuance. Your actions aren’t explicitly called out by the game as good or evil, your motives aren’t completely clear, and the game basically provides you with just enough information to come to some sort of conclusion yourself, instead of handing it to you. It’s a game I’d say most children, or at least the immature of any age, would completely fail to grasp at more than a mechanical level.
Similarly, Braid. On the one hand, you have people engaging in a discussion over the meaning of the game, what questions it asks of the players, et cetera. On the other hand, one young Soulja Boy Tell’em. Someone who clearly doesn’t grasp that the game even *can* have a point. (Or, perhaps as likely, wishes to openly distance himself from appearing to have an opinion about such subjects, hedging his interest in the game in the more vulgar aspects of it, the mechanics. A common conceit of any culture embracing anything resembling machismo.)
I think this brings up another distinction entirely, that is mechanical gratuity vs. experiential gratuity. In Soldier of Fortune, I can dissect my virtual foes one joint at a time. My actions themselves lead to gratuitous, truly visceral, displays of violence. Compare that to titillating cut scenes where the player is simply *shown* graphic violence or sexual content. It seems almost obvious that the participatory nature of video games is what sets many people off in ways that don’t apply to traditional media. The sex sequence in Mass Effect wasn’t given near the same level of treatment as the much more difficult to invoke “Hot Coffee” portion of GTA San Andreas. I believe that’s largely due to Hot Coffee being an interactive sequence, unlike the results of a chain of dialogue choices presented as a narrative sequence. (From what I know, I haven’t played Mass Effect so perhaps I’m mistaken.)
I don’t think that gratuity should be mistaken for a half assed attempt at maturity, though. Plenty of games feature non-”mature” gratuity. Peggle is extremely gratuitous. You have the tense voice of the crowd, Ode to Joy, quick zooms, etc. All of these are presented to the player without affecting gameplay itself, and are just as gratuitous as a large explosion in any Hollywood blockbuster. Which is not to say that gratuity is bad. I love the triumphant moments in Peggle, I love good explosions. I also greatly appreciate the effects of the bridge falling in Shadow of the Colossus and the Braid’s forced enlightenment at the ending. Those are things which I think require a bit of maturity to fully understand and appreciate. Not so much for that sequence in SotC, which tugs directly at our heartstrings and mainly relies on the player not being a sociopath, but definitely for Braid and its unwavering insistence that the player examine their own motives and perspectives.
There is a real difference between mature content and Mature content.
One type is trying to cater to adults in a way that ramps up the odds, tone and consequences… one just ramps up the level of blood, sex, and cussing.
I hate it when developers throw around cuss words for no reason other then because they think the audience will like it.
It is fucking lame when all the motherfucking characters seem to fucking say fuck every other fucking word…. Shit, man fuck that fucking shit!
On the flip side I do not think games have really gotten using gore effectively right either. Gears is a bit over the top- but it all falls in line with the world they have created. There is a true life or death struggle taking place.
Compare this to Manhunt 2. They try to offer up reasons for the carnage, but really the carnage IS the point of that game.
Manhunt feels like it was made by a 15 year old trying to make an over the top game, Gears feels like it was made by an adult trying to capture what he would have made as a 15 year old.
I love gore in horror movies, but there are times where implied violence is even more effective than actually watching the violence take place.
That is the dichotomy that so many developers do not understand.
I want to say that Rockstar is doing too much for attention, but at the same time, where would we be now if developers never tried to put mature content in games?
Someone has to do it first and just like there are Rated R movies that adults go to, there can be Mature games that feature adult situations.
When mature content is thrown into a game for attention or immaturity however, it can hurt the industry.
I don’t think that violence or sex should be labeled mature as neither require any level of maturity, both can and are done by children.
As for a good example of gratuitous mature content, I’d have to say Conker’s Bad Fur Day. That game was hilarious and didn’t need any of what it offered to be good. It was based on the same Rare engines powering Donkey Kong and Banjo Kazooie. But it made it all the more fun to bounce off the huge breasts and the overall experience of the game.
I don’t mind some violent “mature content” when it is presented with some gravity. In real life, ideally, violence is only employed as a last resort against injustice, in defense of yourself or others who are unable to defend themselves. If a game can at least approximate this sentiment, then bring on the gritty reality of what men have to do to preserve the world they love. I think Gears falls into this group, as does the ‘good’ side of Fable 2.
However, I find misogyny for its’ own sake to be repulsive. An example would be the one time I decided to see what it was like to be a jerk in GTA 4 (of my own volition, that is). I beat up a pedestrian for money, shot some cops and eventually got taken down. I felt so terrible that I turned the game off and never really went back to it. Why on Earth would anyone actually want to play that way? I didn’t feel like an empowered badass… I felt like the antithesis to everything society and civilization has molded mankind to be. As a thinking adult male, I could not force myself to enjoy it.
I prefer to see mature content used in context when appropriate such as illustrating the ugliness of war but have a problem with it when it is glorified such as the Bloody mess perk in Fallout 3.
While I might not agree with the mature content in a game I don’t feel that it should ever be censored. Personally, I am most disturbed when I hear someone describe how “satisfying” the pop of an enemy’s head is when you curb stomps them, or any such similar description.
As a mature person of 21 I think that if a developer wants to make a mature game then they should make it. I feel games can be art so they should not be held to a different standard than movies. The interactivity of games does not change the decision for me. The developer makes a game the way they want and the rating system is there so that people know what is included. It is the parents job to keep mature games away from their kids. What the hell happened to parent accountability?
First and foremost I feel that a proper mature game is trying to convey a story or situation with a mature depth. As some have commented here, Fallout is a good example of that, as it puts you into a world full of despair and death, something a younger person may not be able to deal with or comprehend until a later age.
Another take on mature games(also mentioned here) would be Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball. Using some handy dandy breast physics, were given a mature game through eye candy visuals, rather than immersive environments.
When it comes to growth in mature games I feel the GTA series challenges people to take a second look at M rated titles. I feel the drunk driving in GTAIV was a perfect example of a mature situation that was not abused, but rather helped to show that these types of games don’t throw blood and gore around aimlessly and should be viewed on equal terms with other media.
It all comes down to the fact that videogames are not just for kids. In the some way that cartoons are not just for kids, and comic books are not just for kids. For every spongebob there’s a south park, and for every mario game there’s a grand theft auto. Look at the ratings, read the previews, and log on to whattheyplay.com.
Looking through my collection of games, I do not think a Mature rating really infers much more than a milestone that certain list items determined up by a review board have been checked off. The ratings do not represent anything more than a synthetic benchmark. Aside from the level of survivor-on-zombie carnage, does Left 4 Dead really merit an M on the basis of the plot?
Some games make effective use of the M-tier to tell a story that is involving. Mass Effect has a number of decision points I feel are handled very seriously: crew relations and the decision to sacrifice one of your team. Both you cultivate over the course of the game and have impact on the player. In the beginning GTA IV’s core story-line does use the violence as part of a compelling story line, but then it just devolves into killing because there is a cash payoff. Afro Samurai is a fun hack-n-slash, and as part of the thematics: a three-foot fountain of blood shooting out of a freshly vacated neck and cutting an enemy from crown to groin fit and /are/ gratuitous, but not overly so given the genre’s cinematic history.
Some games use the M-tier categories gratuitously. DOAX2… Does it really deserve to be a mature-rated game? Or is it just an immature-rated game that checks off a certain set of items on “the list” and takes a step over the T/M line? I would argue the latter and say that you could derive the same enjoyment from the credits of The Man Show. Likewise Gear’s chainsaw bayonet adds very marketable “Blood and Gore” and “Intense Violence” bullet points.
I no longer bother looking at the ratings on the back of the box. If I want to know whether the content is gratuitous or fits the game I look at reviews, I listen to what other people say about it, and I do my homework. Just as a movie’s rating does not determine the quality of the movie, nor a “Parental Warning: Explicit Lyrics” tag tell you much about the album aside from the lyrics, the ESRB rating can not tell you much about the maturity level of the game’s content.
Mature – Silent Hill 2.
“Mature” – Gears of War 2.
I think both of those games would be lesser experiences if one was to remove the adult content.
Quite simply, it’s all good. Some forms of media are all about the gleeful gratuitousness of their chosen guilty pleasures (gore, naughty fun bits, etc.) and some are about somewhat more meaningful things. Sure, artistic nudity is beautiful, but sometimes you just want to go, “YAY BOOBIES!” Delighting in the immature can be cathartic.
I think sound has been unfairly portrayed in the media. Modern games rarely have bleep bloop sounds! Also, when someone is just mashing every button on the controller at random. You say you’re playing a racing game, so why the hell are you wailing on everything but the accelerator, you fat jerk? You call yourself an actor, yet you can’t even act like you’re not some sort of spastic retardasaurus?
I think Rockstar’s inclusion of hot penis action in The Lost and the Damned is just their way of saying, “Hey, movies can have penisia, (that’s the plural of penis, courtesy of Louis C.K.) so why not games?”
It’s sort of like giving a big, meaty middle finger to everyone who still considers games to be nothing but children’s toys.
as a hardcore gamer, my priorities lie with the quality of a game, not how mature it’s content is. if a developer can only sell a game based off it’s sex and gore, the game shouldn’t be made.
GTA earns it’s existence by giving the player a quality experience. if you took out all the sex and language, what would be left would still be fun.
the games that are gory and gross just to be gory and gross end up coming off, ironically, as immature.
As an adult in my thirties and a new father, I see mature content in gaming different than I did in years past. Gruesome violence can be portrayed in a game in a realistic way that enhances the story in the way Scorcese might in film. I think GTA4 did that fairly well, I was actually torn when given the option of taking a life in that game. On the opposite spectrum, when I see Marcus Fenix chainsaw a Locust who then explodes for no apparent reason, it comes off as absurd and ridiculous. I stilll enjoy Gears but the childish nature of the violence comes off as almost insulting.
I have no problem with mature content in games. Nowadays, you get previews and reviews that give potential buyers a pretty good idea of what the mature content is going to be like. I’m not worried about accidentally buying a game that I will think is too violent or too sexed up.
Censorship bothers me. A game like Duke Nukem is deliberately over the top, and that’s fine. I know what I’m getting into before I purchase the game. A sex scene with nudity? A strip club with topless women? That’s totally fine. It fits. Strippers are SUPPOSED TO be naked. People are SUPPOSED TO be naked when having sex. Women don’t keep their bras on during sex (don’t you hate it when TV shows do that?).
In Fallout 3, I thought it was kind of silly that when you stole the clothes off a corpse, it suddenly wore a t-shirt and shorts. That type of censorship takes a knife and stabs the game fantasy world in the gut. On the other hand, the over the top “bloody mess” violence portion is completely uncensored. You can go as far as bashing a corpse until the body parts explode. It didn’t bother me, but how about a little balance? But I do think “bloody mess” is realistic. Most people don’t realize what happens to the human body with it is shot with a high powered rifle. In the end, I think the developers made a good decision in making “bloody mess” optional. They gave the player the choice, which is what I appreciate.
There are too many people out there who still treat videogames as if they are toys. Slap an R rating on a film, and they can show whatever they want. Yet, an M rating on a game still restricts what the game can show. Games are not mainstream enough for people to take them seriously… yet.
People generally consider it bad to cheat on a partner. But its generally permissible to watch a show where the character, even the hero cheats on someone.
This has to do with how the content is delivered and the level of personal choice in experiencing that content. A story told to us is normally considered only as partially reflecting on us and our moral character to the degree that we are willing to hear it. But a story we participate in is considered to require our continuous personal judgment and so reflect a much deeper moral judgment on us.
Many people who have a problem with content in video games do not seem to distinguish between role playing and lying. Their connection to the “real” is made all the stronger in their mind and others by their closeness with mainstream fantasies; like network television, popular sports and sometimes not so mainstream religious convictions.
This is more then a mainstream vs niche culture debate. It is a philosophical struggle between people who believe that we are enriched by experiences outside of the prescribed tenants of what our shared culture holds to be right behaviour – so long as we do no harm to others – and those who view such deviations, where even the potential for self inflicted harm of a moral nature is considered to be a threat to the dominance and stability of our shared culture.
In some ways its a classic freedom vs security debate but its been made increasingly visible by improvements in technology that permits allegory in games to be put at a whole new level of bluntness. Suddenly the pipe looks unmistakable like a pipe. But, gamers know, this is not a pipe!
I know its a crazy idea, but what if developers made two versions of a game? One with an M rating and one with a T rating? That way, they could appease both the hardcore crowded who want “realism”, and the parents who want “safe” content for their kids.
But really… with the internet these days, what kid hasn’t seen porn or heads being blown off…
I think that sex is really demonized in American culture. There are games where you are forced to murder innocent people that I’ve never seen on the news, but when it comes to sex, everybody is in an uproar about how sex is ruining our society (see Mass Effect, GTA: San Andreas). What is admissible in Europe and Japan is deemed “pornographic” by the ESRB. It is my belief that there is such thing as gratuitous sex, but what I’ve seen in video games is, for the most part, not even close to gratuitous.
I guess that what makes me angry is that video games are held on a different standard than movies. In movies, sex scenes are permissible, as long as they are not too graphic. In video games, a sex scene either gets an AO rating or a segment on Fox News. It seems like, for video games, it’s really hard to push the envelope for sex, since showing anything resembling sex gets an AO rating. That says something about society, since very few games have actually gotten an AO rating for violence.
Personally, I’ve stopped caring about gratuitous things. There are quite a few games out there in which the amount of violence is almost funny in how a single bullet can knock a person’s head into several pieces (Fallout 3). Overall, I believe that video games are shifting more towards unrealistic amounts of violence, but society in general is moving that way, too, so nobody cares to notice.
It bothers me about how violence skates by unnoticed and sex in video games is watched like an escape artist in solitary confinement. Our nation was more terrified of Janet Jackson’s boob than it was of the Platte Valley High School shootings. I guess people just fear reproduction more than death.
The two sku idea isn’t a bad idea per se, but i do think that it’s terrible business.
What mature content means to me is just that, content made for the people who can safely observe something happening (nudity, violence or what have you) and take it in only as a form of entertainment.
Games that revolve and abuse such content for sheer shock value are not worth my time(i’m looking at you DOA extreme volleyball).
I don’t mind the whole “wang” scene in Lost and the Damned. I think that i’ve seen one of those before and I believe that Rockstar put that in to make a statement. “we can and will keep making our games in our universe and in the same flavor that we always have”.
For what it’s worth I think things have gotten better in the present generation. However, there are alot of games that noone has time to play that may be insulting the gaming populous. Luckily, I try not to know of them.
Here’s how the video game industry should deal with mature content in gaming: take a page from the television and film industries. Mature content is appropriate in some circumstances and inappropriate in others, and it truly is all relative to the particular show/movie/game. So, just as it’s “ok” that Jack Bauer tortures a terrorist in the 9pm slot of ’24′, but inappropriate to see gore in a Saturday morning cartoon, it is equally acceptable to have adult themes in a mature shooter, for ex., but would be off-putting to have blood in a Lego Series game.
And, thus, when was the last time you saw ANY main stream television show or film displaying full frontal male nudity? You haven’t. So, WOW, GTAIV, that is certainly a bold move.
I think maturity in games has a lot to do with maturity of gamers. Games will do what the fans desire, or at least, wouldn’t mind having in their games.
For example Brothers in Arms: Hell’s Highway had some truly horrific violence in it. You can blow enemy limbs off, fragment their faces with heatshots, and there’s even a cutscene where a local priest gets both of his legs blown off, and dies while staring and his stubs. The violence alone would’ve been a good way of exemplifying the horrific nature of war. However somewhere along the way, an “action camera” feature was added, that slows down the action whenever some violent happens, and zooms up on the scene. Whether this be limbs being blown off, or several heads being blown to bits.
I think gamers as a whole are glaringly immature, so we get content that matches our level of maturity.
And assuming you guys get sidetracked to “Are gamers immature?” I’d like to bring up Prince of Persia. (I’ll relate it back to the issue at hand, just trust me and read on)
I think it’s ridiculous that people look at Prince of Persia like any other game, and not as a defining piece of storytelling. People complain about whether or not the game is too easy and completely disregard the story. In fact many people who play Prince of Persia complain that the ending is “pointless” and leaves you in a position where all your efforts were a waste of time, and there was no point in playing the game in the first place.
I think the ending broke a trend that’s unfortunately become far too common in video games. You don’t save the world, things are not any different, and what The Prince does is selfish. However if gamers are going to complain about not everything working out they expect it to, then we’re going to be continued to be treated as children. It’s like saying “I didn’t like Scindler’s List, because the girl in the pink dress dies.” Gamers expect something from video games. And while some of us may realize “OH yeah the violence shows how fucked up everything is” everyone else sees it as “LOL I SHOT A DUDE IN THE FACT AND ATE HIS HEART.”
I’m not sure how to change this mindset, but if we want games to take us more seriously, we need to take them more seriously. When people talk about the lack of Gang Wars and mini games in Grand Theft Auto IV, instead of how emotionally charged the story was, of course the DLC is going to put a big dick on screen.
There weren’t any news articles about how different and original GTA4′s story was, but I’m sure this appearance of Dick is going to get more news than you could ever imagine. The problem is a lot deeeper than developers putting shit in their games, it’s what we pay attention to, and what we center entire podcast segments around.
tl;dr?:
YOU’RE THE PROBLEM.
Mature content can be done tastefully in games, but goofy shit like the God of War’s threesomes and Lost and Damned’s dongstravaganza don’t seem to have any real relevance in context of the game. Unnecessary nudity like GTA4′s seems like it’s there only to cause a commotion, when it’s really just dumb.
I don’t think you need violence or sex to earn yourself a Mature rating, but it seems like it’s what we all think of when we hear “M rating”. Gears of War has fools being liquefied by chainsaw bayonets, Ninja Gaiden has Rachel getting her breasts covered in post-explosion monster-gore, and the worst and more recent offender, Onechanbara, has a 12 year old’s jiggling jugs dripping with the blood of the zombies she’s just slaughtered.
I think that something like Indigo Prophecy handles most of its mature content in a pretty brilliant way. Sure, the sex scene is awkward and goofy if you have a capable version, but it was as tasteful as we’ve seen, really. Aside from the zom-babies. But something that it really did well, and I think why it’s most deserving of its M moniker, is its intense psychological drama. It’s less about the blood on the floor after Lucas’ murder, and the fact that he was seemingly possessed to commit the act. From there, his degrading psyche sends him down a turbulent road. Moreover, the lady-detective’s incredible claustrophobia is another intense element to the gameplay. Stuff like that is really more “mature” than blood, guts, and gratuitous titty shots, and there isn’t enough of that in games.
Heavy Rain will likely earn an M rating more for its serious and *mature* content than any blood or boning contained within.
I think the last time I bought a game specifically for it’s “blood/gore/sex” level, I was probably 16.
I don’t think any older “hardcore” gamer is truly influenced by this factor, aside from considering who he plays the game with.
I like that the industry is trying to advance past GTA maturity, but it’s still got a long way to go.
When I say I want maturity in games, I mean the same as when I request maturity in other mediums.
That is to say, I want the artists/creators to put a lot of thought into the piece of work, to handle each subject matter with care, and engage with something more than base emotions.
I do think it’s a pretty big request though, with the state of gaming today. Most games sell well even though they don’t feel mature in all of their facets, and some in none.
If we compare movies and television shows today to those mediums 30 years ago, we see leaps and bounds in the ambition of the storytelling. One example I like is Battlestar Galactica; the current show is so much deeper than its progenitor. I have no doubt we’ll see analogous evolution in video game storytelling.
I think one of the most important things in trying to do games with maturity in mind, is to not stoop to frat-boy mentality whenever you’re in trouble as a designer. What I mean by that is that college kids are often very insecure and afraid to express their true emotions, and often even lack the communication skills to do so. If a game designer wants to make a scene that conveys a difficult emotion, don’t be afraid to do it. Especially if it makes for a cohesive interactive experience; if it puts other parts of the game in context, and perhaps turns them on their head.
What I think will hamper games’ maturity a bit is how big they are as artistic projects; It seems to take a lot more people and money to make games, so companies are almost exclusively willing to invest in the gaming equivalent of movie summer blockbusters. I believe we don’t really think of many summer blockbusters when we try to list the 20 most mature movies of all time.
Now, I want to put in my to cents (well, kronas actually) into the Lost and the Damned discussion.
Why is there such an uproar over this? Why is everyone racing each other to state that it is gratuitous, serves no purpose, and essentially condemning it as a bad move?
It’s a god damned flaccid penis. Half the human race has one of those.
Regarding the claim that it is completely unnecessary – and should rather have been omitted – there are a lot of things that most people would label unnecessary in a storytelling. When do women’s nipples add to the storytelling? A zoomed in crotch shot? Were people up in arms when each of the God of War games were released, because of the bare-breasted babes in those games?
I’d conjecture that Mr.Stubbs’ stub does add to the storytelling. This is a character that is so full of himself, and confident about his body, that he goes out of his way to not cover himself when he needs to talk to someone – even some lowlife thug he’s about to intimidate into doing some dirty business for him. When he stands up stark naked, Johnny is of course taken aback; Rockstar want us to get a bit of that emotion too. Get better “acquainted” with his… character.
Anyway, that’s my take on it.
Keep up the great work with RebelFM and Eat-Sleep-Game, guys. I really like how professional the show is despite being recorded in a makeshift podcasting studio / living room
Best regards,
Valdimar / Gamertag: CantorianPanda
Honestly, I think most games pull off the M rating really well and it never feels out of place. Gears of War 2 does an excellent job with its gore, making the core gunplay mechanics so much more satisfying. I don’t think anyone will disagree with the statement that Gears of War 2 features some of the most satisfying headshots in any video game ever.
If anything I think the biggest problem is the amount of developers/publishers who are reluctant to allow their games to get a rating higher than T for Teen. The biggest offender I can think of is Eidos with Tomb Raider Underworld. That game would’ve benefited greatly from a M rating. No, no, not so that we could see Lara’s tits.
Let me explain. The old tomb raider games featured death traps, violent deaths and mature themes. They all had Teen ratings. They got away with this rating because the graphics were detailed enough to make the deaths extremely brutal. Tomb Raider Legend, Anniversary and Underworld’s deaths have been reduced to Lara sliding 100 feet across the floor (reaction to spikes) because of the enforcing of a Teen rating. Or look at the cutscene in Anniversary where Lara is shooting some dude multiple times in a “dramatic death” and there is NO BlOOD. And she evens wipes INVISIBLE BLOOD off her hand. Things like this really limit a games effectiveness and atmosphere.
And notice how it’s Eidos we’re talking about. Not a company known for making good decisions as of late (aka the past 5 years).
In the end, I think the M-Rating needs to be used with care and ENFORCED when a game needs it. Publishers shouldn’t be afraid of branding a game M for Mature because of sales since today’s top selling games (Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid, Halo, Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto) are mainly M rated.
Along the same lines as a lot of the comments from above, I think that if we compare the games industry to the film industry we see a social disconnect.
You can make a movie about torture and there is very little complaint. If people don’t like it, they just don’t watch it. However, if you were to make a game where you systematically tortured people for information or pleasure, or even where you were being tortured along with other people, there would be public outcry.
The sexual content issue is even more pronounced. I’ve seen stuff in PG-13 movies you’d have trouble getting into a game without it going to AO.
The problem is perception. When a kid asks their parents for a game, they think “hey, video games are for kids, I’ll get them what they want, then they’ll calm down and stop bugging me.” Then when they see their 12 year old ripping someone’s arm off or looking at scantly clad women in a game they get outraged. It doesn’t matter that the box says 17+ on it, the industry should know that kids are playing these games! Or something.
Mature content is fine. Everyone stop complaining and pay attention to the ratings. The ESRB needs loosen up the ratings, M should be like R, not PG-13; T is for PG-13; AO is for NC-17.
If I could have one thing with mature rated games, I’d ask for developers to market more M rated games to adults. More specifically, adults that don’t fall into the “college video gamer” stereotype. Yes, we need those games, but I’d love to see a video game that pushes socio-political boundaries, or leaves a message that resonates through time.
Throughout history, most art forms have contained ‘mature content,’ why not video games?
Penis’s are always funny, hell, I am shocked we can all stop laughing long enough to actually do it.
I think the M situation is good as it is, even though being a brit I have to deal with the unpredictable BBFC. I find it interesting that I have been way more disturbed by books than I have ever been by games, and books are hardly regulated at all. Reading James Ellroy’s ‘The Cold Six Thousand’ made me feel physically ill, reading Don Mcullin’s ‘Unreasonable Behavior’ aged 12 was probably not such a great idea…
But still, I think the situation is ok, and we are moving forward in a logical fashion… and if you can’t laugh at a todger, what can you laugh at?
Game’s can’t get off of the hook for their content because they are still mostly viewed as children’s toys, despite the massive evidence to the contrary. The public at large can’t shake this preconceived notion of juvenility because the medium is so young, and we haven’t distanced ourselves from the roots we laid down decades ago, in the aisles of Toys ‘R’ Us.
Film, as a medium, has always flirted with mature and objectionable content. D.W. Griffith created the concept of continuity editing and in doing so established the medium as an art form. He also dealt heavily with racism in films like “The Birth of a Nation.” The film was controversial for its subject matter at the time of its release, even during the heyday of Jim Crow. The subject matter of his work was mature (and often reprehensible), but was influential in spite of that. This is because he revolutionized his craft.
Gaming has had its share of Griffiths, but they haven’t had any mainstream appeal. Games like Grand Theft Auto, while they’ve been getting better about it, are the filmic equivalent of pointing a camera at some genitals and giggling. Truly heavy hitting content, like Griffith’s work, succeeds in forwarding the narrative form of gaming in spite of (or perhaps because of) the revulsion it causes by bringing the issues home.
Compare Indigo Prophecy with God of War. Indigo Prophecy (or, more appropriately, two thirds of Indigo Prophecy), is a pretty good representation of mature content which represents the medium well. God of War is puerile in its depiction of mass slaughter and sexual conquest. Both games show tits, but the difference is in the weight given to those tits and the context in which they fall. For an example of tasteful and effective nudity in film, see the shower fight in “Eastern Promises.”
The games which handled mature themes the best were PC adventure or RPG titles that could get away with crazy, otherworldly violence and depravity, and still come across as thoughtful inquiries into human nature. They could only get away with it because there were no eyes on them. They weren’t afraid of congressional hearings, and when the cat was away, the mice played. Making violence and sex a taboo only leads to scatological treatment of ideas which could add gravity to the experience.
The best example of a well-handled mature title is, in my opinion, the adventure game adaptation of Harlan Ellison’s “I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream.” It’s possibly the most adult, mature, and disturbing game I’ve ever played, but at no point do I feel like the designers handled the content in such a way that neither seemed excessive nor reserved. Fallout 3 is very similar, as every choice the designers made seemed to properly serve the mood.
Games need mature content. What they don’t need is immature content masquerading as something for adults. Let the artists say what they have to say. Even if we don’t like what they are telling us, we can at least appreciate they way they said it.
People today don’t like what Griffith had to say, but we still acknowledge his contribution to the craft. Let us, as an industry, get our heads on straight when it comes to mature content. Then we can see what gaming’s D.W. Griffith can do. If it makes us ask ourselves difficult questions, then hope is not lost for meaningful mature content in our medium.
I’m terrible at concise writing, but here goes…
Violence and Gore: On this issue I’m coming from the perspective of an Iraq vet, though I do not for a moment claim to speak for all vets. If anything, there is not ENOUGH gore and (more importantly) suffering in many video games. There’s certainly room for the amoral, agendaless, consequence-free shoot-em-up just as there’s room in theatres for movies like…well, “Shoot ‘Em Up”, and because there is I don’t object to something like Prototype. At the same time I think that the realistic depiction of just how ugly violence can be is a potent tool in any artist’s arsenal and is necessary in many cases if you really want to address issues like the costs of various types of violence.
Despite the responses that violent games have gotten over the years most are fairly tame compared to the real thing or even to film. To use one example, the scene near the end of the newest Rambo where Stallone mans a M2 and mows down dozens of Burmese soldiers is not actually over-the-top, although other parts of the movie certainly are. Other weapons, from small arms to swords, are rarely that dramatic in their effect but they can still maim, deform, and cripple, often without actually killing.
Yet, while I can think of games where a near-dead enemy might fall over and writhe around a bit or mutter and moan in pain (someone commented on this during the Stalker backlog I believe) I can’t think of any where fallen enemies are both depicted with realistic levels of gore AND depicted in a way to communicate their suffering to the player in a believable way. Doing multiple near-death behaviours and voice clips for types of wounds would be a ton of work, but it also might go a ways towards giving the deaths of video game characters more weight. I wish I could go on about things like putting kids and civilians in the cross-fire and the choice on how and how often to employ gore, but this is already getting spammy as hell.
Sex: First, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I think there’s a legitimate place in the medium of gaming for games that are “erotic” or “pornographic”, pick your label. Maybe you can use that as a jumping off point to argue about whether porn in any medium can have any sort of artistic value, I don’t know. Setting “porn games” aside as a special case, I think that the question when it comes to sex is how it’s being used in the story. An example of the poor use of sex is the way rape and sexual abuse seems to be catching up with “orphaned” as a stock Tragic Character Backstory(tm), used as a quick way to go for the player’s emotional buttons without actually examining what this means to the character in question. They may have fleshed it out in MGS4, but Otacon’s backstory in MGS2 stands out to me as an example of this sort of simplistic and ham-handed approach.
Unfortunately, I can’t think of any games where that sort of issue has been really explored in a meaningful way. If we can have a sex scene in Mass Effect, perhaps we can have a romance complicated by the protagonist’s or the NPC’s lingering emotional and sexual traumas in Mass Effect 2. However, I can think of one game where the sexual elements seem to have been used in an interesting way, even if I’m not sure it’s a “good” example per se and even though I’ve not played the game myself.
Leigh Alexander writes, or at least wrote, a column for Game Set Watch called The Aberrant Gamer, and one of the columns covered her response to a survival horror game called Haunting Ground ( http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/11/column_the_aberrant_gamer_haun.php#more ). In the column she describes the way that the rather overt sexuality of the characters and even things like the camera angles during cutscenes actually worked to heighten the fear and discomfort.
As far as more healthy sexual relationships go, again I think it depends on the needs of the story. Does a character’s sex life matter in the context of the story or experience the developer’s trying to create? If not, then there’s probably not a lot of point in dwelling on things like a shower scene (Indigo Prophecy) or revealing costumes (the majority of female video game characters).
One last point, and then I’ll shut up…
Ratings: Right now, everything I’ve said is largely a moot point, because games are held to stricter content standards than other creative mediums in most countries. Here in the US, game content that would receive a “R” rating in film is often given an “AO”, and AO is a death sentence for games in much the way NC-17 is films. Worse, with games there’s little or no possibility of restoring the excised content later in the form of an “unrated cut”. Finally, except for digital distribution over PC there’s no open market where developers can market “unauthorized” and “unrated” games. I don’t like it, but I suspect that the only solution for this one is time.
Gah. A request for whoever’s in charge of site desgn now: please implement a “preview” function of some sort.
God of War sexy scenes are a great example of how gratuitous ANYTHING only comes off as comedic, nonserious, and immature when you compare it to the storyline. It seems as though the sexual innuendoes and situations were put into the game only to satisfy and appeal to the younger, hormone riddled teens that got a hold of the game.
Mass Effects sex scene, on the other hand, was much more mature, serious, and it wasnt in your face. it only came about through developing a relationship with a character. It sisnt simply happen regardless of the storyline like GoW.
A mature rating should cover themes, scenes, language, and violence. there are no grey areas, as something as small as a hint of sexual tension, or a violent confrontation in a non mature rated game can lead to young gamer asking questions, trying something out, or asking a parent a WRONG question.
continue to regulate the rating system, and provide adequate description as to why the game is rated what it is. Similar to some movie rental cases, you get a brief description of the sex, language, or violent situations in the movie.
Matt Ekenstedt and others hit the nail on the head. The real problem with mature content in video games is the lack of acceptance, as a medium, that games have to deal with. But mature content, as we all know, isn’t just limited to the Bloody Mess perk in Fallout 3 or mini-games in God of War.
What about other issues that have been discussed in other media (books, film, TV, etc.) for decades? And what happens when the mass media gets wind of a treatment of such an issue in a video game — a treatment that may be inflammatory or seem outrageous?
Case in point: I was discussing Resident Evil 5 with some gaming press colleagues a couple of weeks ago. I haven’t played anything except the demo, but they had seen much more of the game. They talked about a few scenes that sounded like they could be interpreted as being rather racist, and I immediately said something to the effect of, “Imagine if Fox News gets a hold of that footage — it’d be ‘Debbie Does Dallas meets Luke Skywalker’ all over again!”
My point is, it definitely seems like games are moving toward covering more mature themes and issues, and I’m all for that. And I’m certainly not saying games should censor themselves because of an anticipated media backlash or anything; after all, that’s not something that books or films have to worry about, for the most part (though network TV still does).
But do you think the media’s “problem” with mature content in games stems from: (A) their accessibility, ubiquity, and influence among kids, (B) their relative youth as a medium, (C) a perception — however wrong and inaccurate it may be — that “games are for kids”, (D) all of the above, or (E) something else?
Its strange you use Ninja Gaiden as an example when the game is highly influenced by anime. I remember when Shane and a few others criticized the art style I thought to myself “I thought it was purposely done in anime style like DOA.” I think if you were a game stylized after anime then having lots of violence makes a lot of sense.
However something like God of War seems to be violent just for the sake of being cool. Maybe I’m wrong and it was stylized after something although my memory gives me no example at least on the level of God of War’s violence. Don’t misunderstand and think violence used for its “cool” factor is something I’m against. In fact I think it’s a great gameplay tool that allows the player to know just how great of an effect he is having on others and their environment.
Turok 2 for example was hardcore violent, but it actually added an emotional component to the game for me. The game featured a save system that was loathed, but served the purpose of making the game feel like a survival horror title. So while the game scares the crap out of you with enemies that can come from anywhere, you then are given violent weaponry. This gives the player immense satisfaction of disposing of what you have learned to totally fear earlier in the game. Another emotional component came in the form of the death animation. At the time is seemed revolutionary that the weapon and point of impact changed not only the gore, but the death animation as well. The PFM Layer was a proximity mine that would slice enemies at the kneecaps and have them squirming in pain on the ground in such a realistic way that I actually began to feel guilty.
On the bad side of mature content is Manhunt. Manhunt is a game that breaks every set of rules I have about games that I loved. I hate stealth games and yet Manhunt is one of the greatest games I ever played not because of the violent kills, but because of the voice in your ear. The Director that informed you on your tasks and missions was an integral part of the experience. Realistically you could simplify the game for yourself by doing the level 1 kills that are easier to do and much faster. All logic would have you play the game in this style, but the voice of The Director is so convincing I found myself doing the more brutal level 3 kills out of curiosity and simply not wanting to hear the disappointment in The Director’s voice. I think a game that can convince you to be more violent by using voice acting and not some made up game mechanic is a bit frightening. While this is something that parents completely fear, I see it as a true evolution of the art form that the use of non-gameplay mechanics can greatly effect player behavior.
Couple of points about it.
I think publishers and game makers use it to generate publicity for a game because there is no other way for a game to make prime time TV or news without it unless you are one of the mega franchises. Its a cheap ploy which unfortunately still works.
Secondly, I dont think the use of sex and sexuality in games works at all. Sure, games have been built around it (Tomb Raider is the standout example) but as a part of many storylines it just falls flat on its face. Even where it was handled tastefully as in Mass Effect, for me there wasnt the connect to the rest of the game. It felt like one of those things you read in fanfic.
I think that “mature” games are most commonly found in the two camps brought up in this topic; quality use of mature content (much like in an R rated movie) and those that are using it for the sake of being overtly bloody or excessive (much like NR movies that go direct to DVD.) Also some can toe the line of content and excess well (see God Of War’s sex mini-games and the over all epic story)
I think that since the gaming industry is growing and maturing we will see more of this. Ultimately we will continue to go down this road until the majority of the gaming population shows (though sales) that a game can have blood and gore, but a good story and gameplay needs to be there as well. Once the games are there, the main stream media will make less of a hissy fit when a game contains violence and sex when movies come out with content that is equal or more shocking than what is found in games. But, this also can be subdued when more of the gaming press (like Shoe going on CNN, Geoff Keighley on Fox News or Adam Sessler ranting on G4/podcasts) talk about games from an informed background and not just out to sensationalize something that people might find shocking.
Thanks for the hard work all!
I just wanted to mention that after having played it, I don’t find the ‘mature content’ in GTA 4: The Lost And The Damned – to be all that gratuitous – more than anything, its an absurd flash of naked flaccid penis by an equally absurd and pompous character. When I first read about the controversy, I thought it’d be some sort of really shocking imagery of a guy doing something vulgar with his wang – I’m not sure if ‘disappointment’ is the word I’m looking for to describe my feelings on the actual scene. More like a bunch of head-shaking and eye-rolling at the character himself.
I think Fall Out 3 is gratuitous as all hell, but once you get over the initial shock of just how gory each kill is, you realize its just a game celebrating simulated gore and then you find new ways to create that gore. It becomes less about the gore itself and more about messing with the rules of the game and the physics system (like active nuka-grenades falling into Allistair Tenpenny’s pant pockets up on the 30-whatevereth floor.)
Another interesting point is how the ESRB/Parents/(Disbarred Lawyers that may or may not be name Jack Thompson) seem to view what the definition of gratuitous is. Our culture as a whole seems to think more often than not that violent videogames/movies/books with disturbing content are okay but a flash of a peen or boobs is suddenly a call to barricade our children in bomb shelters and cross ourselves in anticipation of the coming apocalypse.
I think videogames should feature more sexytimes for all types of people (except um, maybe furries and ‘anything goes Rule 34′, I guess) and maybe sometimes back off on the violence a little, especially if there’s not a total need for it.
Don’t get me wrong, I love a good, melon-bursting headshot in just about any game – as long as the game’s overall content fits well with the theme of head-explodey.
No one can deny that the maturity of the gaming industry as a whole has grown since the beginning.If you need evidence just look at how the Mature rating began as a way to warn people about the gore in games like Mortal Kombat. Nowadays through we have numerous games that use the Mature rating because the designer is trying to tell an adult story. Call of Cthulhu is a great example of this trend. The designers are trying to take a mature piece of literature, and create a different experience of that narrative. The game isn’t mature because the designers wanted it to be. Instead the game is mature because it is necessitated by the story, atmosphere, and overall experience.
Mature titles like Gears of War to me aren’t a misuse of the rating to me either. To me they can be compared to R rated movies like Kill Bill, Saw, and 300. It’s in comparing these titles that show there is a double standard between the movie and game industry. Everyone knows that teenagers are watching these movies just like teenagers play mature games, but no one complains about it like video games. I think the reason behind this is that there is still a gap between the younger population who understand what games are, and the older majority who didn’t grow up with modern video games. An example would be that if you explain to anyone over a certain age about a detective film they understand exactly what your talking about. Try to explain to someone about a mature game like Heavy Rain, and only a few people will be able to mentally picture what your trying to communicate. This lack of understanding then ends up leading to people getting their information from mainstream media that overreact about the content in games.
I believe the hardcore gamer set owe a little bit of thanks to the Wii. The reason for this is that the Wii has helped the mainstream crowd better understand video games to a certain extent. While it won’t cure the rift completely it is a small solution to a problem only time can fix as the game industry continues to mature.
I personally think that Maturity in games should be justified by the experience you get out of it. If boatloads of blood, and flying limbs make my experience more meaningful in a game, I’m all for it. On the other hand, games shouldn’t be sex games. I don’t exactly want to see my son staring at a box of GTA-unrated edition at gamestop.
I think Rockstar maybe only showed the penis to piss people off and get attention, but personaly i’m not too bothered by it, it was not presented in a sexual way, so I wouln’t be too bothered if a future child of mine saw it. As for violence and gore it definately adds to a game, but this is not suitable for young audiences.
I like this kind of discussion and I can’t wait to here you guys talk about this on the podcast I expect you guys to be both mature and MATURE! (done with a cheesy EXTREME voice) while talking about it.
Fore-warning for anyone reading beyond this point: There may be spoilers involved in any game I happen to mention.
Bioshock is a great example of a game that is both mature and “mature”. The setting, storyline, atmosphere, and even the gameplay all have this mature feeling to them. The game does an amazing job of drawing you into a story that doesn’t pull any punches and isn’t afraid to make you think some terrible things are happening around you (like when you believe Andrew Ryan killed “Atlus’” family by blowing up the escape sub they were in). There are a number of characters who are quite well on the mature level as well. The meeting with Andrew Ryan is a gaming moment I will never forget. It was one the single most defining moments I have seen in a video game possibly ever. On the other “mature” end of the spectrum the game was very bloody. There was blood flying everywhere. Although I do classify the amount of blood as “mature” it is also mature in the sense that its very fitting with the atmosphere of the game and the game would not work as well without it.
Another game that I think did mature very well was F.E.A.R. There was nothing mellow about the first game. It was unforgivingly hard at the higher difficulties and had a story that, while confusing as all heck, didn’t shy away from its content. The second game was much the same. While both games had a lot of blood and gore, more than enough to satisfy the people who get all excited by that stuff in games, it also fits that little grouping with Bioshock of needing that type of content to work. Horror-movies these days have this sickening trend to show every little violent act that is happening and no one seems to understand subtly anymore, but on the game side it seems a lot developers get that some of the most horrific things are those that are left up to your own imagination. F.E.A.R and its sequel have you travel down blood-stained hallways littered with bodies in various states and it leaves it up to the player’s own mind to decide what happened to them. Forcing the player to do this adds to the suspense and makes you wonder when you will run into this horrible monster you imagined doing all of these acts (or the giant man-eating Hot Dog that my mind imagined during one play-through of F.E.A.R).
For a game that just purely “mature” I think I’ll just pick on the easy target. Dead or Alive. Despite the game’s rating its very easy to tell its targeted towards horny young teenagers. It has been a very long time since I’ve seen the point of that kind of content in games. To me it exactly the type of thing that games should not focus on. I have nothing against hot woman (or hot men either), but I find it impossible to be turned on in the slightest by the types of “woman” you find in games like these. To me, someone like Alyx Vance is far more attractive because she feels real and more than just some sex-symbol with highly unrealistic boob-size. That isn’t to say that I dislike DOA as a fighting game. Its a fun diversion from games like Street Fighter and Virtua Fighter and it very well could have a lot more depth and complexity if the current front-runners of Team Ninja decide to focus more on the gameplay and less on T&A.
Well thats my two cents.
One of the issues here is the use of the word “mature” at all, when it comes to being a black and white, definitive rating. Mature to me suggests maturity, where the game-makers have taken considerable effort to ensure that its content is presented in a thoughtful and interesting way. I am personally fine with sex, drugs, rock and roll… hell, why not tear someone apart in front of me and spill their blood down my gullet? But if you do this for the sake of me drowning in your juices alone, then you lose, Mr Developer.
If, however you have taken the time to build the connection between myself and the victim, say, taking us through a game and a half of rebellion (and clever monologues) together, and if you masterfully foreshadow the victims death in the near death of his daughter just hours beforehand, completely throwing the player off guard, AND IF, in the moment of violent truth, the player is literally helpless in a way that seems so emotionally ironic and unfair that said player has no choice but to cover their eyes and ears as a giant tongue plunges into dear sweet Eli’s brain, no choice at all, for they cannot bring themselves to look – THEN, Mr developer, I am yours and you can stab me in the eye with pieces of plumbing to your hearts content.
But please dont show me penis.
Here is the deal:
There are really two types of mature games. The first is games that are mature to look at-such as Gears, Fallout, GTA, or DOA Extreme. And there are the games that are mature due to their storyline or subject matter. With the intraweb out and about these days there is really not much one can do about bloody or nude games instances, AND, considering most gamers skip through the storyline anyway-we have nothing to worry about either way…….
When Heavy Rain comes out and has a very mature plot that involves something quite rejectable what will we all say then?
Peace and Love
As long as the game is clearly marked with a rating if there is mature content I don’t see why games can’t contain similar themes/scenes to films.
The backlash of ‘mature’ games (whether or not mature means gore and sex or complex stories that are appreciated by mature people) would be a moot point if the fundamental feeling about games were not still that they are for children. When parents see their 8-year-old picking up a prostitute, using her services, and making a profit from her corpse, they get upset. The point being that if they were doing their job as parents, their children wouldn’t be playing these games at all. The problem is, people still see video games as being a kid’s passtime and a lot of people get upset when they see boobies in something that is supposed to be for kids.
I feel there is alot of grey area in games now. A example I felt was in the God of War series the character Kratos is supposed to be this uncaring, unloving hate machine out for revenge. He will use anyone and anything to get what he needs. So in that sense it makes sense that he is the kinda guy that uses women and throws them away.
But the threesome minigames always seem cheesy and cheap in a “banned from TV” type way. It does kinda fit the setting of there being women that will throw themselves at a powerful man but it just comes off incorrectly.
It seems that videogame developers have distilled mature content down to blood,guts,boobs,and gore. Ocassionally they will throw in torture for good measure. I would rather see a mature storyline instead. Most videogame storylines are the same as movies that end up in the bargin bin. Give me honest-to-goodness maturity and stop trying to fool me with neanderthalic fighting. Then you will have me engaged.
How I feel about it is I’m not concerned with either violence or sexuality on games. Which I think has to do with age and experience. I’ve seen a lot and I’ve done a lot.
Now the worst sexual things I can think of to show in a game would be penetration. However if they showed it, it would definitely not be an ‘M’ rated game it would be an ‘A/O’ rated game that might never be made in the first place unless it’s a PC game.
I’d say God of War and GTA are series where the developers empower the players to be a bad ass and a pimp so having full frontal nudity and sex without showing genitalia during sex mini games wouldn’t be out of place.
In the case of say Mass Effect I could see them creating a lengthier scene still classy and not as raunchy as what would be in GTA or God of War, something that like the original scene in the game was more a byproduct of an in game relationship that showed passion between the player and the love interest.
In the case of violence, once the game enters the realm of dismemberment and decapitation it’s clearly an ‘M’ game which I don’t have a problem with. I start to cringe when it gets into the horror porn type stuff as in something such as the ‘Saw’ movie series. It’s not that it doesn’t fit certain games such as Condemned, I’m just not down with that sort of content but I don’t fault games for having disturbing imagery.
Concerning specifically the ‘Lost and Damned’ flaccid penis it’s content for an ‘M’ game that’s not meant to be viewed by players under 17. There also happens to be no physical sexual activity in a scene which is not interactive anyway. The scene happens to be laced with humor as Johnny is stealing glances at Stubbs genitals, whether he’s bi-curious or can’t help but look out of disgust I’m not entirely sure and Stubbs is proudly displaying his plumbing. Was the scene necessary? No. Does it add to experience? Yes. Players might discover they have an insecurity with seeing another mans set of tools. Do I want to see it? No. Does it bother me? Not really. Could I go through the episode without seeing it? Preferably. From a larger perspective, this moment in the game that lasts less than ten seconds is receiving a lot of recognition, we’re talking about it.
Overall, our society and culture I believe is way to uptight but I also don’t go for the whole hippie sexual revolution. I think the west just needs to feel less shameful about the human body which is where Europe is somewhat ahead, some really great works of art have come out of Europe displaying sex as beauty. Sex is just accepted in Japan to a degree that it’s just not a primary concern.
Personally I think console manufacturers need to allow ‘A/O’ rated games to be allowed to reside on their systems in part to be progressive and also it’s dumb to have a rating that serves no purpose other than to say you can’t release this game in it’s current form because it received an ‘A/O’ rating.
First off, I don’t think that mature content should be defined as respectful, but rather as contextually appropriate. I think that gratuitous mature content is a result of the content being presented without justification by the rest of the game.
One of the better examples of appropriate mature content, I feel, is in Fable 2 (Spoilers), where Lucien shoots your sister, your dog, and yourself, demonstrating a very dark, and mature villain without exploding heads or fountains of blood (although those are present elsewhere in the game). At the very end, you have the opportunity to kill him yourself, but if you choose not to, then Reaver kills him, which was very much within his character. Nobody said “Woo, I could do this all day” or “Eat shit and die.” It was just mature subject matter presented in an appropriate way.
I think the comparison of games and movies is a valid one, where some movies are obviously more gratuitous than others. The main issue I see is that the gaming industry and community has done almost nothing, in my mind, to make video games an acceptable widespread art form. The film industry has titles like The Departed or Reservoir Dogs displaying very graphic, very mature subject matter in an appropriate way that can be recognized for its merits by the general public, In the case of The Departed, it even won several prestigious awards. I can not say that this is the case for gaming, where the award winning titles seem to all be along the lines of Gears of War, where if you peel back the mature content, you have inappropriate characters and dialog, and a distinct lack of story. The violence isn’t justified by the context of its presentation, it is just violence for the sake of violence.
I do not really have a problem with gratuitous mature content (or immature content, as can be the case). I would describe the movie 300 as having gratuitous sex and violence. I still enjoyed it. The problem is that there is a lack of appropriate mature content in gaming, where in movies, I don’t think there is.
Next, for the love of god, it is called a penis. I don’t want to hear anymore talk about dongs or wangs or (this one was new to me) bro-bats. Penis. Say it with me: Penis. If we can’t talk about a penis in a mature way, there is no way that a penis can be in a game in a way that is anything but immature.
Now that I have that out of my system, regarding the penis in The Lost and Damned, when I heard about it, I didn’t feel too strongly about the situation, but after actually seeing the scene, I found myself disappointing with Rockstar’s presentation. My problem with what happened in the GTA DLC is that they had a 3 minute drum roll leading up to it, where the character is literally strutting around naked, and the camera constantly keeps his penis just out of frame. Then, right at the end, they reveal the penis with a big “Ha, made you look.” Had they simply shown a penis without making a big deal about it, I feel that it would be much easier to defend maturity in video games. Of course, I realize that subtlety is not what Rockstar is known for, being that in GTA IV, there are billboards for PissWasser beer, with a woman lifting her skirt and squatting over a bottle.
This whole thing makes me a little sad though, because I think that this is going to cause a lot of backlash concerning game ratings. Since GTA IV was rated as Mature and having only “Partial Nudity,” and since this DLC is not rated, but changes the content of the game so that it no longer conforms to the initial rating, I think that whatever the outcome of this is going to set a bad precedent for DLC on the whole, and that the industry will ultimately suffer because of this.
The problem is not violence, and gore, and all that, because by-and-large that doesn’t appeal to a mature audience in the first place. It appeals to teenagers, and maybe early twentysomethings.
The problem is that “maturity” comes from mature protagonists having mature relationships, and you’re never going to get that as long as half the characters are ciphers and the other half are children going through yet another coming-of-age story.
Both types of mature content have their places, but I wouldn’t be ignorant enough to say that all of it is good for the industry as a whole. Games still have a lot to prove to the general public, which is where the problem of gratuity really lies.
Whenewer there’s a new game that the news jumps on to criticize for it’s mature content, it’s easy for us as gamers to quickly defend the game because we want to see the industry become more legitimate (putting aside the fact that the news is blatantly wrong at a lot), but it’s very easy for them to call video games bad with the type of things put out. Sure there are a few games that deal with mature content well but it’s usually the same list that people rattle off again and again. Like the movie industry before, I think that there is a lot that video games have to prove they can do before the gratuitous stuff has a place to settle.
Here’s the truth: Video games are still, as a whole, a classier and tamer landscape than Hollywood.
They just get a bad rap and heavy media coverage because it’s (still) a foreign area for many people, and smacks of The Future. Same reason Second Life still makes headlines.
It’s a simple double standard between movies and games. A woman squatting over a PissWasser bottle is a pretty tame (and lame) joke compared to an average Judd Apatow gag. There are probably more “Fucks” in The Big Lebowski than GTA’s main dialogue. And yes of course, you can show a penis in an R-rated movie, especially for gags (Sideways and Forgetting Sarah Marshall say hi.)
Also, although I think it’s honorable to argue that a “Mature Content” should mean “A Mature Storyline” rather than just quantities and varieties of sex, drugs, and blood, the latter is simply more quantifiable. Ratings boards can tell when a boob is exposed, but they can’t rate something based on the depth of the characters’ motivations.
I’m all for gratuitous violence and/or nudity in moderation (especially nudity). Rockstar will be rockstar. I’m not surprised about the whole twig and berries thing as they seemingly get a kick out of riling up the media.
Context is important. Left 4 Dead is over the top violent with splattering heads, severing of limbs and exploding torsos, but it’s a game in which you massacre zombies by the 100′s. It makes sense. It makes sense in God of War because it’s a fantasy game based off mythology – it’s not grounded in reality. Taking a game that is grounded in reality and putting that kind of over-the-top gore just doesn’t mesh as well. I don’t want to see exploding heads and limbs flying everywhere in Rainbow Six Vegas.
Nudity, on the other hand, is always gratuitous. Unless you’re watching porn, there’s absolutely no reason to show sex organs in video games and film. There are exceptions of course. Maybe there’s a film documentary about genital piercing, then of course there’s going to be some nudity but not for the sake of just having nudity.
The sex mini games in God of war I and II? Totally gratuitous. Fun, yes, but gratuitous. Weiner in GTA IV DLC? WAY WAY gratuitous and totally unnecessary. I’m 100% sure the main character’s wang has no relevance to the plot.
If you’re developing a game that’s for ages 18+ and you want to put nudity and violence in it, fine. The ratings are there for a reason. Just don’t overload it with tacky nudity for the sake of having tits and cock in the game. And for the love of god, please, please PLEASE don’t show Kratos’ purple headed warrior in the next God of War sex game.
This message contains FOUR slang penis references.
As a gamer I have little problem with gratuitous violence and sex in games. I expect blood to come spurting out of necks in Ninja Gaiden 2, it’s part of the reason I play the game. I expect Rockstar to push boundaries, and in American culture full frontal male nudity does that. I play games to exit outside of normal reality. As sex and violence do make up part of the psyche, it is not surprising they are found in games in over the top and outlandish ways as creative individuals explore these concepts.
As a mother I play such games when my son (who is three) is asleep or staying with his Grandmother. I want such content detailed in the ratings information so there are no surprises. Parents need to respect the ESRB ratings when they are purchasing games. How many times have you been in GameStop and seen a harried parent buying something completely inappropriate for a young child just to shut them up? Video games are still seen as toys by many, who are then shocked when the content is inappropriate for a young person. These same people wouldn’t take that child to see a R rated slasher flick.
As a nurse, who routinely sees insides on the outside and patches together bullet holes and knife wounds – I often worry about the level of violence in our society. I enjoy a chance to blow some cops away in a game when I need to let of some steam, but then is the cop I treat at work that was shot by some young meth head there because someone else can’t make the distinction between games and reality? The moral lines all start to get very murky. I don’t think that we need to censor games, movies, or books – but maybe we need to look at how they are reflecting the world around us.
I’d say most of the mature rated content I could do without. Graphic representations don’t often do much to further a story. Removing blood and using realistic but profanity free dialogue can often be just as good if not better than using the f-bomb. There are some things I like about Kill Bill such as the dancing knife fights, and others I don’t, like the decapitation. Other mature rated content like The Lost and the Damned I could do without completely. Rude, crude, violent, mean, disgusting content doesn’t appeal to me.
I think this argument seems to dissect taste as a means to define maturity. With contemporary America, this is just not possible.
Unfortunately, “mature” is a term intended for the masses. The public consider “mature” content in relation to video games to read as “inappropriate for children and youths”, not really the true definition of the word. Given that’s the standard and the expectations of consumers, mature video games basically encompasses anything that a 13 year-old can’t look at. This is a wide range from tasteful storytelling to senseless sex and violence.
I, being underage, (please don’t ban me) have this issue come up a lot. In particular games, it is, yes, there for a reason. I would say that Call of Duty 4′s gore is there to push the horrific scenes of war further into your head, and to create a less lighthearted and more brutal feel about such war games. However, in Killzone 2, for example, the extensive swearing and blood splattered across the screen more often then not is just there so that their game can be considered brutal and gritty. A lot of the time though, it’s overkill. Another good example of a game being just plain overdone is House of the Dead: Overkill. F-Bombs are dropped at least twice a sentence and blood splatters everywhere. The only reason for such gratuatis violence is so that they can say “hey, we’re making this game for the hardcore because it’s on the Wii and is not for soccer moms.” At that point it is just a nuisance and at a certain point all the swearing and gore is just overkill (no pun intended).
(Some spoilers ahead)
I think that maturity in games comes in a few different categories.
The most obvious category is what you guys coin as “gratuitous.” One stand out game in this category is Mortal Kombat. Ripping someone’s leg off and then beating him to death with it serves no purpose other than to be extremely violent (like the rest of the game). In Gears of War, did chainsawing the Locust into pieces have anything to do with progressing the story? No, but it looked cool. BMX XXX, however, was completely unnecessary.
On the other hand, there are games with mature themes and stories. One iconic scene occurs in Silent Hill 2 when you see Pyramid Head and some mannequins in an apartment (I won’t say any more). That scene is extremely disturbing, but it is there for a reason. Yes, they could have left the scene out, but it elicits an emotional response from the gamer that a non-”mature” scene could never accomplish.
Bioshock is another example of mature done right. In the showdown with Andrew Ryan, every single uncontrollable, brutal swing with the golf club was essential to the entire plot of the game. Without that scene, Bioshock’s story would not be as strong.
While there may be just one label of ‘Mature’ from the ESRB, maturity comes in different “flavors,” and sometimes there is a fine line between them. From Fatalities and mini-games to disturbing and pivotal emotion-driven scenes (MARIA!!), games will (hopefully) continue to push the envelope of what is considered to be ok for audiences.
Off the topic of maturity:
I love to listen to Anthony’s rants. “Anthony Gallegos, on…” was one of my favorite segments from 1up/Cat Fancy FM, and I think it should be brought back.
Just for the sake of argument I’m going to say that the comparison of video games to film, literature, and music is not valid. In video games there’s an interactivity with the outcome, where in a book or movie the audience is a willing or unwilling participate in a predetermined story.
I can actually see where parents could be concerned with violent video games if their children aren’t mature enough to understand cause and effect or if a game’s “evil”, violent choices undermine the morals that a parent is trying to teach a child. But again, if a parent is involved with actually trying to teach their children right from wrong, then they’re probably involved enough to monitor what their children are watching, hearing, and playing.
I do think that the interactivity of video games does tend to gray the line a bit more than rock music or comic books ever did.