Join us for the magic this episode as we’re joined by the unfortunately curious Patrick Klepek and special guest and podcasting Svengali Andrew Pfister as we talk about the games we’ve been playing (there’s a lot of talk about Resident Evil 5), issues of race in games (there’s a lot of talk about Resident Evil 5), and close out with letters (which are blessedly free of Resident Evil 5).
Note: two things! There are some Dragon Quest 5 spoilers at about the 50:00 mark (but Phil warns you, I promise), and also, I’m an idiot, and Christopher Columbus was Genoese (as pointed out below), not Spanish. All I can claim was heat of the moment. Enjoy!
This weeks music is, order of appearance:
- Oh Mandy, by the Spinto Band (CD, MP3);
- Patent Pending by Heavens (CD, MP3);
- Damsel of Death by It Dies Today (CD).
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Can’t wait to check this out, nice to see Klepek back and Pfister making an appearance.
Can’t wait to listen, downloading now.My Wednesday graveyard shift would not complete without Rebel FM.Anyway I just want to say as a black male ,I find 50cent BOTS to be way more racist than anything in RE 5.More bad stereotypes of black culture are displayed in the first minute of Blood on the Sand . Than in all my play time of RE 5.
Its great to see you guys put stuff like It Dies Today on the podcast. Can’t wait to listen and can’t wait to hear all of your takes on RE5.
Heard on geekbox that anthony isn’t invited to GFW reunion? I would (edit: and this is where my comment was edited by the management because i’m a wheelbarrow full of douche! and, and! my IP address has been marked as spam! hoorays!)
Sorry but Christopher Columbus was italian.
In case you didn’t already notice, the iTunes podcast title for this week says 03-11-09, instead of 03-18-09.
On another note, another sweet podcast!
Philip, if there’s one thing you should have learned by now - it’s “Eff the gaming community”
To anyone else grabbing this… there are DQ5 spoilers at around the 50:00 mark. I did not know this and am thusly spurned.
I wish you’d quit saying “the western world” when you have your racism discussion. The US has problems with RE5, but I’ve yet to hear or read even a single word in european media about it.
Honestly, I think you’re overreacting because you’re living in a country that has a “loaded” history with slavery and racism.
In short, RE5 is not racist or controversial - and it’s not perceived as such in the majority of the world.
Why is loaded in quotes. European sentiment aside, you can’t deny the sensitivity that exists in the United States. Due to the extended history of slavery and subsequent Jim Crowe Laws and anti-black violence and sentiments, from which the country is still recovering.
Also, while RE5 might not be racist, how can you claim that it’s not controversial? Look at all of the discussion. Isn’t that a marker of controversy?
“loaded” is in quotes because it’s an understatement.
I do not deny the sensitivity that exists in the US - what I do deny however, is that somehow makes the US the authority on what is, or is not, racist or racially charged in absolute terms (which is the thing applicaple when talking about RE5, which isn’t a US produced or only-US aimed product).
If anyone has that authority, if anyone even does, it’d be the majority of the population.
Which doesn’t seem to agree that it’s controversial.
On another note, the whole “controversy” seems rather artificial. Do people complain when movies stereotype asians as martial arts masters?
I would agree with you. I really haven’t heard any other place outside of the US that has had a large talk about this.
I wholeheartedly agree. I really like listening to gaming podcasts and most of them are produced by Americans, but I can’t shake the feeling that they tend to be very narrow minded when it comes to global topics (like racism); like they are the one big/final authority in the world.
I’m from Europe myself and I’ve never heared anybody bring up racism in context of RE5, except people alluding to buzz it’s stiring up in the american press. Americans seem to be overly sensitive to that topic.
I understand that racism against black people is a hot topic over there and that it should be discussed, but by trying to be oh so politically correct and to show how not-/anti-racist they all are, they might be overdoing it a bit.
Also the attitude towards other people’s opinions of some of the panelists on this podcast are not helpful at all. Bashing on comments doesn’t make you right, just a douche.
If you’re tired of argueing, just stop talking about it - I know I was tired after the first 20 minutes of listening to it already.
The discussion lacked a vocal counterpoint, someone of the opinion RE5 is not racist by any means, just an over the top game - with dogs splitting in half and tentacles coming out of it - in a game world - where big corporations build giant underground labs to genetically engineer super virii to create super soldiers - with stereotypical game characters.
Not saying that that’s totally right either, just that the discussion was lacking a lot of “but”s.
The podcast is recorded in America.I’m assuming the gang isn’t an expert on European press/race opinion because….well why should they be? Opinion over there has little effect on us over here. People could be living in a fucking utopia and have equality all around but if there’s still controversy/outrage here, who gives a fuck?
“The US has problems with RE5, but I’ve yet to hear or read even a single word in european media about it.”
Both Edge and Eurogamer have reported on the racial issues raised by RE 5.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/resident-evil-5-hands-on-chapter1to3?page=3
Only in reaction to on-line discussions fueled by americans.
I have yet to see any single editorial in Europe or Canada that has raised this as a concern. The only people who seem to bring this up are white people in the US and quite frankly it’s a non-issue.
If Americans were -truly- concerned about race imagery in video games, then why was there NO uproar in Resident Evil 4 where all the hero did was kill eastern european people?
The day the US gets rids of it’s KKK, Rednecks, Republican right wingers and it’s deep hatred of anything non-American will be the day they can have a voice with the views of the rest of the world, until then they have no moral authority on anything and shouldn’t assume that THEIR view represents the view of the entire planet.
Why bring in republicans? There as many(if not more covertly)democrat’s who are racist as republicans. Furthermore I would even suggest that Democrat’s policys on race are more racist then Repuclica policies. Consider this Robert Byrd the longest standing democratic senator was in the KKK. Policy’s like affirmative action pushed by leftist groups only aim to sepperate minorities from the general public by setting lower standards. Rublicans on the otherhand belive that every person no matter the race should be upheld to the same standards and therefore shall we all be considered equal. Im not republican, im a Libertarian, butyou should get your facts strait before you attack anyone.
Right wing republicans are notorious for trying to maintain Jim Crow laws. While there have always been racists in both the Democratic and Republican parties (racism known no boundaries), it is obvious clear that right-wing republicans have always viewed ‘foreigners’ and “immigrants’ as enemies, going so far as building a wall to keep mexicans out of the US.
Liberals and even leftist groups view people as equals and aren’t pent up with nationalized racism the way the US seems to have had in it’s history.
On racism in San Andreas, I doubt so much that it was forced, but that nerdy white videogamers are racist fucks. When the PC version came out, one of the very first mods was a ‘white patch’ for CJ. I remember reading somewhere, maybe it was gamefaqs, something along the lines of ‘What’s wrong with me not wanting to stare at a black guy for hours and hours’.
ololirony
I’ll admit, I complained a bit about San Andreas. The color of the hero’s skin wouldn’t normally matter to me, but it was fairly evident from the first announcements that they were going for an “early 90s ‘hood movie” vibe, and that’s not a genre that interests me nearly as much as some of the others. I ended up liking the game a hell of a lot, and thought CJ turned out to be a really good character. And there were a lot of douchey racist idiots saying douchey racist shit. But don’t lump everyone in together–there are a lot of different subgenres of ‘crime story.’ Everyone has their favorite, and the hood movie attitude was further from mine than 3 and VC were.
Also, Christopher Columbus was Genovese.
You are correct; he went with support from Spain.
Really outstanding episode. It’s a pleasure to hear you guys have such an open and honest debate on the touch subject at hand, and approach it with such cool heads.
Regarding making the DS more “holdable” for long periods of time:
They have these thick Nerf branded cases that snap on to the DS. By doubling the thickness of the base, it makes it much more comfortable to hit the shoulder buttons.
Admittedly, the case makes the DS less portable and they’re annoying to take off (the DS snaps in tightly with the case), but if you play the DS at home, it’s not a bad solution.
I want to clarify: I don’t think that we shouldn’t address any issues like this in games, be it “racism” as people perceive it (when they mean “racial,” as Skip said). What I meant was that I don’t know if developer should be bothering with something like racially sensitive situations, or challenging someone’s religious beliefs. Warren Spector once said that Deus Ex was going to be comparable to the Golden Compass (and that series) in that it would be proposing intriguing things about religion, and how you look at it. But he thought better of it saying that people shouldn’t have to consider their faith while playing a game. So I’m with him in that regard because there’s really no reason to put sensitive subjects like that, or racially-focused, The Wire-like situations, in a game.
If and when someone does try to challenge this design, we SHOULD be discussing it. The more I listened to you guys speak, the more I thought about the whole “race” thing in RE5. While I initially shrugged it off as a non-issue, it’s because the imagery DOES exist that we should be discussing it. I brushed it aside because I didn’t feel it could be construed as intentionally aggressive, but the fact of the matter is that it is a strange thing to see in the context of a videogame.
So once we start seeing sensitive subjects in games, they become a point for discussion. But, as I said, I don’t think there’s a reason for anyone to tackle super-sensitive stuff like race or religion, because sex hasn’t been portrayed seriously. We’ve got Greek threesomes in God of War and ghost-humping in Fahrenheit to highlight that subject. Baby steps, developers. Baby steps.
Someone also mentioned menacing Africans throughout, and the group of glaring villagers at the beginning. One thing that struck me (and this is in an “oh shit, these dudes are fucking SERIOUS” kind of way rather than “nobody here is portrayed as *normal*”) was the three or four guys beating the shit out of someone wrapped up in a burlap bag. There’s a person in a sack that’s flopping around like a fish while some guys pummel him with kicks. If you approach them, they stop. They stare at you, and you know you’re in deep.
So no, there really isn’t any portrayal of typical African life, unless villagers are prone to regularly mutilating passerbys with sickles, and executing locals with giant-ass axes.
In addition to that, seeing tentacles burst out of people does kind of make it obvious that this doesn’t have to do anything with race - unless you consider creepy parasites a race.
Just wanted to add that RE5 does explain the melee attacks. There is a document in the game that explains it. It’s in a room a little while after you beat the first boss, I believe, at the beginning of the following chapter.
To your comments in the podcast that games have never dealt with the issue of racism, Ultima 6 and 7 dealt with it directly, along with a wide swath of other moral issues.
Ok, so Christopher Columbus died in Spain…so I will give you that little bit of confusion. I think I lot of people think that he was indeed Spanish, I remember my 2nd grade teacher thought he was Spanish as well…weird!?!?
Anyways, the Racism is Bull. Why was Croal not defending me back in 1996 when my people were be irradiated from a Midwestern town inside a mansion? My people were depicited as poor ingrates wearing torn battered clothing and unclean…did you see how they depicted their faces? We do not live or look like that here in the midwest. Disgusting! Absolutely despicable!
So, did anyone find that the stupidest argument ever? Yeah, me too. This is what everyone sounded like when the first trailer of RE5 came out. It is in Africa people! I think they made it even more racist by letting people get under their(devs at capcom) skin and one, including more and different ethnicity of not-zombies. And two, this can not be confirmed, but I am pretty sure before town criers came out of the woodwork, this game never had Shiva in it. Just throwing that out there.
I have not listened to the podcast yet, but I think this is one reason I am not a fan of Croal. If we want to get past this, you have to stop crying. I didn’t cry back in 1996, and you shouldn’t be either, grow up everyone.
I can’t wait till you listen to the podcast. Listen for the special shoutout when you’re talked about as one of the people trying to squash conversation with your dismissive remarks.
We don’t make Jill sandwiches out here either. That is a fallacy, we respect our women damnit!!!
Yawnskies! Are you guys ever going to explore topics outside of the “cliche videogame press” playbook? I’m pretty sure by this point all your listeners know what they need to do to “make it in the biz”, “write a paragraph” or “sixteen ways to pharse ‘gameplay’” or “games as art/progressive medium”. Come on doods! I guess it could only be downhill from being let go from Ziff, but you all have better things to talk about than same ol’ same ol’, right?
Loved the podcast guys. The commentary on RE5 was interesting and some good points were brought up from both staff and listeners that got me thinking even more.
I think the next topic of discussion should be whether or not the Ratchet & Clank series portrays the Lombax race in a racist manner.
I hate to point this out, as I typically really enjoy the discussions held by the crew, but while discussing the potential racism of RE5, it was mentioned that a common argument is that nobody complained about the killing of Spaniards in RE4. Immediately afterwards, Arthur pointed out that;
“They (Spain) are the country who almost systematically destroyed the entire like, the entirety of the culture south of Texas and to the west of Texas…”
-through the use of Catholic missionaries and the like, as if trying to justify the killing of Spaniards. I’m not sure, but that seems wrong, because in no situation is it ok to go anywhere and kill large groups of people for what their ancestors have done. That would be like saying that because Hitler was German and a lot of bad shit happened when he was in power, that it’s ok to go kill Germans.
Hint: It’s not.
I’m not trying to call Arthur out or anything, nor am I trying to attack him in any way (even if I inadvertently am). I just think that you guys let Arthur explain away the Spanish-zombies argument without challenging what I believe was a very flawed argument. Nobody cared about the Spanish zombies in RE4, but now that RE5 has black zombies, now people are all pissed-off. I completely understand the concern that people might have about potentially racist imagery, that’s a completely valid concern, but the problem is that those same people should have had issue with the previous games as well, otherwise it’s a double standard.
Either it’s all ok, or it’s all not ok.
(though, I could in reality, be talking right out my ass)
I’d have to say that this comes down to being American and having a distorted view on issues like this. The explaining away of the Spanish not-zombies being ok to kill based on their past isn’t a good argument. You could also use that same logic to say that killing Africans in game could be justified because of atrocities like Darfur. But you wouldn’t because that’s a stupid argument.
“I completely understand the concern that people might have about potentially racist imagery, that’s a completely valid concern, but the problem is that those same people should have had issue with the previous games as well, otherwise it’s a double standard.”
Except the reason people didn’t get up in arms about RE4 or the other games is because there doesn’t exist hundreds of years of horrific stereotypes and imagery of burly white men killing savage spaniards or crazed midwesterners. It’s not that hard to grasp.
There hasn’t been centuries of Spanish people or people from Minnesota being ‘othered’ by depictions of them as savage half-human monsters, whereas since colonialism began Africans have been ‘othered’ in a hundred ways, dehumanizing them, in order to excuse away a thousand different colonial sins.
I continue to be amazed that people seem unable to understand the difference.
To expand a bit: some imagery is more powerful than others. This is obviously exaggerating a little, but: if RE6 takes place in a daycare, and all the zombies look like toddlers, wouldn’t that be disturbing? I mean, I, the player, ‘know’ they’re not babies, they’re bloodthirsty zombies or parasites or whatever, but the end result would still be a videogame about a grown man shooting at infants.
In the same way, Chris Kohler recently recounted his experience playing the Afro Samurai game, and how he had no problem slicing random ninjas in two, but then all of a sudden he was slicing naked gyrating women in two, and watching them flail around screaming in pain with their arms on the ground, and he had to take a second to stop and think about the imagery he was seeing.
The point is, in any culture certain imagery comes preloaded with connotations and signifiers, which carry more weight than others. Murdering spanish people just doesn’t have the same weight that killing babies or naked women or even black people does, for whatever reason.
Note: At the end of my post I did mention that I could be talking out of my ass.
Dude, I’m not going to argue with you about how much more serious the “race” issue with RE5 is than with RE4, because you’re absolutely correct.
My problem is that the issue of RE4 vs RE5 was sort of swept under the rug as if the issue of race doesn’t exist with RE4 at all, when it really does (or at least I think it should), except nobody cares. Perhaps it could have been worded better, but it sounded a lot like; Fuck the Spanish, they deserve it, so it’s ok to shoot them en masse.
On that note, I do find fault with some of the imagery in RE5, namely Sheva’s fur bikini w/ tribal paint. Not only is it sex just for the sake of selling sex, but it doesn’t even feel like the costume is appropriate in context, why would an Australian of Aborigine decent be in full tribal attire in Africa?
Again, I totally get it.
I think the real question is, what does it say about you, if while playing the game all you notice is the race of the zombies? Sure while playing the game I noticed “hey all the enemies are black” but only because the issue was already pushed by podcasts like this. When playing a game like RE4, or Left 4 Dead, or Halo. Im not thinking hey the enemies are all whie, im simply thinking shit better kill it before it kills me. I brought up halo because an overly sensitive person might try to construde the Brutes in halo as some sort of racist ploy to liken brutes to monkies and somehow relating that to old depictions of africans somehow fullfilling some unknown racist need for people to kill blacks. Now the previous sentence is complete BS, but I think you could see my logic.
I remember way back when the trailer had just come out, there was an article comparing the zombie-like infection to AIDS, and that Chris was the American hero come to Africa to eliminate AIDS. Imagine if that is what was being implied in RE5.
I think Arthur’s point was that it was a ridiculous to compare Spain with Africa due to the history of their countries.
Whereas Africa’s history is riddled with story after story of being exploited by colonists and its people are obvious the victims of slavery and the like, Spain’s history is the opposite. During their colonization, the Spanish were the oppressors. Yes, Anthony, I’m also half Mexican and am somewhat conflicted although they destroyed some indigenous cultures, they created a brand new one)
Connect this back to modern times and RE4/5 and you have the following set up.
RE4: Killing Spaniards who have a history of killing and are sensitive when someone insults their paella.
RE5: Killing Africans who have a history of getting killed and are sensitive about it.
Except neither Spaniards, nor Africans have complained about either games. Some US media outlets have taken it upon themselves to defend the poor Africans, appearently because they think the latter can’t speak out for themselves. I find that far more repulsive than RE5 itself.
I think the President of Africa is scheduled to make some sort of statement later on today. He must be as “repulsed” as you.
Love the Spinto Band, can’t wait to listen to the latest episode.
Cake, pie, etc etc.
Anyone else get a slight Bobby’s World vibe from the theme?
The whole RE5/racism debate is as worthy of ridicule as any flimsy logic dismissing it. It’s an overblown joke. A gag made between friends on the couch taking on life by way of the American preoccupation with a jackknifed sense of morality.
Remarks about African and Aboriginal-Australian culture suggests ignorance is prevelant. Which, actually, explains why the topic is even indulged. This isn’t an issue of cultural sensitivity in the way it’s being described, at all.
Nothing about this topic helps gamers and the medium be taken seriously. It’s a silly and contrived topic.
Since you profess to have it all figured out, please be more specific.
It was that cartoon about the little kid Howie Mandel does.
I can only imagine the show was peppered with broad iconography representing family life and childhood in America, as it was at the time.
Needless to say, this was not offense to very many small children, as it was an adequate reflection of circumstantial fact relevant to the material which appropriately cast the illusion.
A non-issue, you might even say.
SPEAK ENGLISH.
You must be American… RACISM~!
San Andreas’ characters being more real or natural then Vice City’s? Really? That’s .. twisted man.
Also odd is the thought that to make RE5 less ‘racial’ was by adding more white people. LESS white people would’ve made it not just safer, but better. Remove Chris as the lead character and instead have a black character as a lead, native to the country the game takes place in.
(And maybe when you’re not playing it co-op, have Sheba replaced with Chris. That’d give some good context to the AI. An amarican being totally out of his depth in africa, needing help every few minutes, that is totally fitting.)
Arrgh, have not had time to listen yet, missing out on all the debate goodness. Will be back after listening - promise!
Unbelievable how much I was in total agreement with Arthur on the RE5 issues. You’re growing on me, man.
Arthur was enormously off on the contextualization in RE4. In RE4 your two lazy Spanish police officer drivers wait in the car while you get out and talk to a guy who immediately turns around and tries to kill you. The police officers are then murdered and after you fight through a dozen more not-zombie-Spaniards, you reach the town, where the Spanish people are doing chores, having already burned one of the police officers. You can see his body burning on the stake in the middle of the town. It is not a bell that summons their rage. The first one of them to see you alerts the entire town to come for your head. If there is any context, it is only that they are docile when they have killed all of the outsiders.
RE5’s approach to an almost contextless environment utterly overcome by violent Plagas-infected people, manipulated by a few central figures, is nearly identical to RE4’s.
I think this might be my last Rebel FM podcast. Arthur’s arrogance is becoming less and less tolerable. Apparently his opinion is fact, and your opinion is merely ad hominem attack.
Arthur states that the killing of Spaniards in RE4 is perfectly fine because of how Spain agressively expanded their culture and religion throughout the Americas several centuries ago. So just as long as your country has done something horrible in the past you are fair game to his guns. I wonder what the killing of 200,000+ innocent civilians with nuclear bombs nets us Americans on his ‘acceptable level of racist killing’ meter.
I don’t think it’s acceptable at all. America has a pretty complicated/poor track record in a lot of respects, and if RE6 takes place on a reservation/casino with Native Americans in feathers and warpaint, then I will also find it offensive.
You can’t criticize aurthur. that pussy will just edit ur comments like he edits his sandwiches.
Also, if you’re a troll, he’ll totally ban your IP, because it’s the year 2009, and he can do those things! Which sucks, because it’s totally cool to make fun of Ryan Scott and Anthony on the internet where I won’t be accountable for my actions at all.
The game is so racist and the only one who don’t see this is White people. you know why? because they don’t care they actually feel better while playing, killing blacks then they do killing their own kind.
Sheva a LIGHT dark skin woman LOL they didn’t even want to use a real Dark Skin Black skin woman more racialism. there so much racialism in this game if you don’t see it you’re either blind or racist yourself
just look at Xbox Live …. you know how many white guy use the word “Ni**er” whenever you mess up in Gears of War 1 & 2 or Halo 2 & 3. The more anonymous these white guys are the more racist you can see their true colors
I hate it when people say “I don’t care if you’re black, white, or purple,” because I hate purple people. Unless they’re choking. Then I help them.
Mr. Kollar,
Black people aren’t called “African-Americans” when they live in Africa. I think in that situation you’re allowed to say black.
Just a protip.
Maybe you could hand this out to people who are suppose to visit your podcast hq for the first time: http://www.messybeast.com/cat_talk2.htm
Wow, Arthur sure got some things wrong at about 1:29:00. Christopher Columbus was Genoese, not Spanish, a point of pride for some Italian Americans. And while the Spanish villagers in RE 4 could be seen doing normal village activities, they were doing these activities while there was a policeman impaled on a fucking spike with a fire burning underneath him! The fact that they were going about their daily lives after committing this grotesque murder is not something that makes them seem more sympathetic than the enemies in RE 5.
5:20 in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOZqDvDIc74&feature=related
The swarthy, cursing, cackling and always aggressively violent villagers of RE 4 who went after you as soon as they see you and who wanted nothing more than to grab the white girl and drag her off into the darkness, are really not very far removed from the enemies you encounter in RE 5.
Thank goodness someone did their homework first.
Thanks for giving the show that 1Up flava, Skip!
Pretty strange to be hearing you on-mike for once. Hope it becomes a regular thing and you (all) find (paid) work (games industry job) soon.
To have a discussion on a topic, such as race, doesn’t it make sense to have someone on the podcast who doesn’t agree with all of you and perhaps a black person on the podcast would be good too? Instead, we listened to you whack each other off at how sensitive and grown up and courageous you all are for having this mature discussion etc… Gag me.
The lesson developers have learned from this is that setting a game in Africa, or doing anything involving black people is completely off limits unless you’re making them the hero or the victim. Period. I think we’re much less likely to talk about reality or have games based on real places in Africa as a result. That’s the real shame, because Africa is an interesting place that we can’t discuss without flagellating ourselves at how awful the ancestors of some white and tan people were.
Me, I have nothing to do with the imagery, the slave trade, or racism, so I refuse to apologize for what the dead great great great granddaddy of someone else did. My family had nothing to do with it either. Constantly apologizing for why certain racial groups have more troubles than others will NEVER help fix the problem. We’ve all explained away the reason, but focusing instead on how to fix those problems through self sufficiency and hard work is the only way to ever get through those problems. We’ve been self flagellating for decades now and the problems that certain racial groups suffer is NOT getting better as a result.
Obama is exactly the example of what can be done if you stop obsessing over the grievance culture and instead educate yourself, work hard, and push for achievement. People who obsess over the reasons life isn’t fair never go anywhere, and use it as an excuse to not achieve. Life isn’t fair. People aren’t fair. It’s better to accept that fact, and push yourself to succeed and make things fairer. But again, people are inherently unfair, and expecting to change that fact is unreasonable. Pinning your life on a grievance and excusing mediocrity away only exacerbates the problem. This whole discussion is just more of that.
So it’s not that I and others think there isn’t a discussion to be had here, it’s that we all knew how the discussion would go down when you have four liberals from San Francisco debating race. It’s a wank fest. One thing I’ve learned from my friends who are from Berkeley is that they desire nothing more than to outdo each other when discussing how awful western civilization/white people are.
You hit the nail on the head. I also agree with the guy who said that Arthur’s arrogance is offsetting. His “I know more about everything than you do” attitude comes off as elitist and douchey.
This might be the worst display of ignorance I’ve ever seen. Dead people oppressed a culture, so you shouldn’t care? It’s history. It’s fact. It’s like saying you don’t care about the repercussions of World War II.
I’d suggest rereading what he wrote as that’s not what he said.
You are my new favorite person. The I am from white suburbia but I am an expert on racism comments on this podcast made me laugh.
Mitch dyer you would know if you studied your history that one of the major reasons WWII started was due to the fact that reparations were required of Germany after WWI. So requiring reparations of whites could theorhetically cause another race war. Think about it! If you were required to pay for the crimes of others or bear punishment so great you could never free yourself from the punishment what would you do? Retaliate, and guess what all the fustration from these reparations gave us? Hitler of couse. Desperate times call for desperate measures and people can make bad descisions in by situations. Its better to simply let things go because as we all know revenge is a cycle where everyone looses.
I like you internet radio show. it is funny
Very nice use of Heavens. Someone has very good taste in music. I heard you talking about Streetlight Manifesto and (I’m assuming old) Catch-22, and was just wondering if you’ve heard BOTAR (Bandits of the Acoustic Revolution).
Hey i have never posted on here, so i just want to say that i really love the podcast and to keep up the good work.
Now there is a reason why i decided to break my silent adoration. This is due to the most recent podcast dealing with race. Now i loved the idea that i think you guys were going for, which was what kind of place does the discussion of race have in the gaming media and the gaming culture as a whole. This would have been an excellent topic and i was very interested in the discussion of race in games as a whole. Yet, very quickly the discussion seemed devolve to if Resident Evil was racist and why it was racist. Which once again is fine, but not really what i came in looking for. What really got me though was when things took a somewhat hypocritical nature. I am refering to how you seemed to address the opposing views. Now i understand that you guys believe that at least in part Resident Evil has racist themes and these themes should be discussed, but the main flaw with this is the fact that you yourselves condemn people for taking the opposite view, by stereotyping all of them as having a kneejerk reaction and are just attempting to squelch the intellectual discussion taking place, but by stereotyping all of the people who hold the opposing view aren’t you also attempting to squelch their views. Its like saying i want freedom of speach, but as long as you agree with me. Now I know the response to this will be that you did read opposing viewers points, but when you did you would make fun of a word they used or just dismissed it entirely. While when you read supporting views you actually delved into the comment and had good commentary about it. Also one thing that really stuck out to me was when Arthur defended Far Cry by giving two examples of black people in the game and then turns around and says that having two “good” black people in the Resident Evil just followed a stereotype and in itself was racist. I thought that this was an example of, well the arguement works for my case, but not for yours. Also when you guys stated that no where in the game do they discuss why the people are dressing up like tribesman, but then when someone points out that they actually do, you talk about how it really didn’t seem to make you feel bad about what you are doing, so once again it doesn’t count. O and by the way when i stopped and read that my first impression was a reaction of i felt bad for these people and what had happened to them. It just seemed to me that the whole point of the podcast was to validify your positions while denouncing the other side and i was really hoping for something more objective and less heavy handed. So anyways i was just hoping to point this out to you, because i really respect your guys opinions, but in this i just couldn’t get over the heavy handedness that you seemed to bring to the table. If you guys decided to do it again i hope you bring in someone that does not believe it is racist to begin with and have an actual discussion about it. I hope that i have not misspelled anything or wrote a sentence that is easily made fun of because i saw this as a real issue and i hope you can understand what i am trying to say and not just dismiss me as a rabid fanboy, just because i think diffirently. To close i just want to state that i think that the discussion is a very healthy one and is one that should take place, but when people in positions of influence like you guys take the same stance as me and then go about muting the opposition, well it just seems very much a political stance, and by that i mean you are just saying it to garner support and not because you really believe it.Once again i am not trying to say that the game is not racist all i am trying to say is that the podcast seemed very heavy handed and seemed to have more of an agenda then to promote the discussion. Anyways Thanks again for the podcast, hope to hear from you guys soon.
P.S. To Arthur, I just want to say towards your comment about being tired of hearing about the Spanish. I understand what you mean by that, but the genocide of a whole community based on race is wrong whether is is the Spanish people, the French, The English, Or the Africans. So I have to say your counterpoint to that was extremely racist in nature and totally devalues your arguement as a whole. It is just like how people who say the game is racist say that Sheva does not count because she is to light skinned. All i can ever think to that comment is just wow. So only some black people can be considered black? Anyway i just wanted to point out that hypocritical comment and hopefully help you rethink that statement.
I think you missed the point on Arthur’s comment about the Spanish. Modern America does not have such a loaded history with the Spanish. There was never a time when the Spanish were enslaved or segregated, so that setting didn’t quite require as much elegance in it’s execution as Africa does. It’s just kind of an invalid comparison that’s all. Genocide as a whole, really isn’t the issue.
Also, it is rather interesting that in order to make a valid black female character, they also chose to make her lighter skinned in a setting where this would be much less likely than in a less homogeneous culture. The idea of what a beautiful black woman looks like in the U.S and pop culture in general seems to lean towards the woman with lighter skin. Why not make her darker skinned and from this area in Africa? Story wise it would have made more sense, offered some character development, and not made it so apparent that they tailored her appearance to fit racial preferences.
Also, you pull out the fallacious “just like how some people” statement, which invalidates what comes after. Who says sheva doesn’t count? Also, what does it mean to be “considered black”? Is it based on the color of your skin? Is it important that all darker complected people be considered black? I don’t understand what you are saying there.
“Modern America does not have such a loaded history with the Spanish.”
Too bad the game isn’t about you. What America has done in the past is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. It’s not a US made game. It’s not a game aimed only at the US market.
To think that the Japanese made a racist game because you find it offensive based on your country’s history is simply crazy.
For lack of Edit:
In other words
You’re not offended because RE5 is racist - you’re offended on behalf of the Africans because you feel sorry for your own history. You’re overcompensating, trying to be politically correct when there’s nothing to be PC about.
I can obviously only speak in context of America (which is where I live, and where the podcast is recorded). I was stating that people did not get upset over RE 4, because this country does not have a history of oppressing people who come from Spain. Those feelings did not come into play during that experience. However there are scenes in the new game that bring up negative feelings that stem from our country’s history, where… face it, racial strife between whites and blacks has been a big issue. Therefore telling someone they cannot feel this game may be racially insensitive just because they didn’t feel that way about part 4 doesn’t quite mesh. And granted this game isn’t only being released in America, but it is primarily targeted at an American audience. Which makes the race issue relevant.
And what are your opinions about the scene where the blond “pure” white snow princess is being assaulted? I assume this is supposed to trigger the “damsel in distress” kind of vibe and then turn it on it’s head when she turns out to be infected, but I felt like that feeling is rooted in the race of the girl. She seems out of place in this shanty town in Africa. It’s contrived and attempts to elicit that response based on the girl’s skin color. Why isn’t she an African woman? And did you have the same feelings when the first man was forcibly infected?
Now to your second reply modern dog, I dont think I ever said that they could not feel racially insensitive about that, all i said was they made the comment that you could not feel sorry for the people and I did, I am pretty sure that throughout i even said that I was not trying to say that the game isn’t racist just that they were not open to the opposing view. So let me just throw this out now because i think that people like you are going to jump to the conclusion that i do not believe it is racist, but i do think that it does lean more on a racial insensitive side, but once again i think that a case can be made for being overly sensitive due to our history. So I just wanted them not to be as heavy handed and to point out that you cannot just dismiss that stuff and then say well they give no context for whats happening, which is exactly what they did.
Ok now to your question about the blond white women, well i think that this is racist for a whole diffrent reason then what the podcast gave. I was playing with my friend and we actually debated whether she wasn’t infected to begin with or not. It seemed more like she was baiting us in more then she was the damsel in distress, when we walked up to the final door we both even agreed that we should probably shoot her first chance we get. Then i started thinking, wow that is extremely bad. For this reason, it seemed like such an intelligent trap, one that all these common zombies would have never pulled, but the blond white woman was smart enough to do it, and i told my friend that and we both agreed that mite have been the one thing that could be pointed to as deliberately racist.
Lastly the scene were the man is forcibly injected, actually i did not have the exact same reaction, because mainly i thought i was suppose to remove the plagas, i thought this was going to be a boss fight that had some trick to it where i couldn’t kill him, but had to save him from the plagas. *SPOILERS*
This scene of course does arise until later with Jill, which once again I thought could be considered racist because you do save the blond who is infected (i know it is with a weaker drug, i read the documents), but you cannot save the man who gets infected right in front of you. So anyway i hope that clarifies some stuff for you.
O and one more things u start talking about America in this post, even though you are talking to DK i believe, i just wanted to say. That I think, even if made for an American audience, that it is difficult for a japanese developer to understand how this could be considered racist. First of they do not live here so they do not understand our culture as well as say you or I. Secondly one of our highest selling games is Grand Theft Auto, whihc you can say its cartoony and over the top all you want, but is extremely racist and sexist. So it would be the same for Americans who do not understand the Japanese audiences, for example why the ps3 does better over their then the 360, its just cultural diffrences. So I am just saying i would cut the developers some slack if they don’t understand the “loaded” history of America.
Ok to your first point, if you read my actual post I said that i understood what he was going for, and yes i get it and the history behind it, but if you listen to the podcast he does a terrible job of bringing that point through, instead he just sounds like he is trying to say he hates the spanish for what they did and even Anthony thinks he takes it a little far, o and to your statement on how many point is invalid because i use the state, just like how some people, well here are some specific examples, Jayakuma in an above post, and Arthur invalidates her not only in this one but the podcast where they foreshadowed this discussion. Then lastly you point out that i said to be considered black.The point i am trying to make is that isn’t it strange that we treat her diffrently because of the color of her skin. In essence isn’t that itself racism. What i don’t get about your statement is when you say is it important that all darker complected people be considered black? Well honestly i don’t care if they aren’t categorized as black, trying to categorize people is what starts these fights in the first place, but i am just saying that these definitions of the categories seem to change as it becomes convenient for peoples arguements and it is just frustrating when people use that in an arguement because their is no true definition. So anyway i hope that clears up my statement for you, and since you didnt disagree with anything in the main body of my message i guess you agree with that. If you have anymore questions or insite feel free to reply.
P.S.S o ya and i just remebered i meant to say that Columbus was Italian.
So yeah…I just wanted everyone on Rebel FM to know that black people in Africa aren’t “African Americans”.
So this is totally random and shit, and I’m sure somebody has pointed this out before me, but I’ve wanted to share it for a while and figured I might as well now.
I was watching Frisky Dingo today, and there are these semi-recurring LARP characters…
One of them is a DEAD RINGER for Anthony.
Guy on the right:
http://www.babarshouse.com/Character_Guide/nerds.png
RETURN OF CIV STORIES!!!
Great show as always, guys. Thanks for posting the info on the music you used for the breaks and closing. Been looking for leads on new music to check out. The ol’ iTunes library is getting kinda stale. Was a bit of a shock to find out that the band you used to close the podcast is the one band on Earth where I actually know a guy in it. Never actually listened to his stuff, heh. Anyway, keep it up!
Ok…. I just listened to the show….And I need to say this….Why are you over thinking this issue with the whole RE5 stuff….Its just….doesn’t make since…. Every time a game released in the M east…there have to be some terrorists why ?? because there are always terrorists in the M east….we are used to it by now ( That is not me saying that, its other people who just don’t understand the east other than what they watch on TV ). But wait…. we there is some shooting going on in Africa ohh that racist becuase this white dude is shooting some black guys ohh ohhh, just grow the F up…it is Africa….do expect to shoot Indians ?? what the hell…. I don’t know why people think that way….I just don’t get it….I just don’t…and how old is your culture again….after 100s of yeas you still think that way ?? that just show how advanced are you technologically, but mentally you still live 1000s years behind….I am sorry to say this but you just made me get out of the bed at 5.30 am just to write this. We in the M east ( and when I say this people think of Iraq because its the only country in the M east ) are living in a very diversitised culture for years ( which I don’t think people in the west know that ) and this issue of being white or black never been an issue….. And I really respect N G but I really wanna hear what he got to say now that the game is out. I am not usually a vocal person but man, this seems to me very primitive…Sorry…. I am a huge fan of the show but what need to be said need to be said and
con*…. I think giving you this prospective is good for this argument of gaming been raciest…
Its just my opinion and I would like you to take it in context…
Ok there are alot of mistakes
… just ignore it and get and think of the point its making
LOL…ok It seems that everything I write is….why can I fix this…man ( just ignore the mistakes and get to the point Im making ) …thats better.
it seems that words are getting cut …WTH
The one part I agree with is the, your in Africa, expect fucking africans. If I went to the southern part of america I would expect some fucking red neck hicks, of course everyone isnt going to be a hick, but the majority would, because that is what stereotypes are, generalities that are based on typical fact.
You know what?
This discussion is much, much, much, better than the small square of forum topics on GameTrailers main page.
I mean what the fuck. When I go there I don’t think the general gaming enthusiast population is “Mature” enough for the need for more “Mature” games.
Okay, I’m a bit agitated here, of course there needs to be maturity in games, however, as a publisher or developer I doubt they find any particular demand for “Mature” games from the majority of the enthusiasts from the garbage I’ve been reading.
Man, I just needed to let some steam off, it really got on my nerves today.
Another great show. Anthony, don’t hold back for fear of offending people. If you do that, the terrorists will have already won. You should use this song in the next podcast: http://www.8bitches.com/fanfic.mp3
I am fairly impressed with how intelligent the discussions about race in RE5 have turned out, at least for you guys on the podcast.
But sadly not for the comment section.
So, I was watching this insane Mario video and I figured the people involved with Eat.Sleep.Game would appreciate it. It’s not my video. I don’t care if you comment or rate or whatever. But, it was pretty cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r86NLwCYXfk
this was a good episode.. thanks!
-
The village scene at the start is the same as the one in 4. Villagers haging around until the siren goes off, or did none of you play this?
Ok just one last thing. I just watched Co-op and they did an excellent job discussing the racial issue of Resident Evil 5, both addressing one of the main points, but also talking about the counter points, and end up with the conclusion that it is not okay for someone to say, “you do not have the right to get upset about this or you dont have the right not to get upset about this.” Also one other point they address is that these people are being manipulated by a pharmaceutical and say that is a metaphor for the inhuman treatment of Africa over the centuries. Yet in this podcast they dismiss this as gamers just imposing that view on the game, yet isnt that the point of the conversation in the first place, to impose our views onto the game. Finding the game to be racist is just imposing our views of past events onto the game (by that i mean that no where in the game do i believe that the creators were intentionally trying to be racist, which by the way you guys agreed upon) So since you agree that they are not intentionally trying to be racist aren’t you then just imposing your views onto the game to come to the conclusion that is racist. I know that is what i did to come to that conclusion. So just because some people came to a conclusion of it is an analogy of pharmacueticals raping Africa, does that make their views left valid? Just curious.
P.S. just a plug watch Co-op, they do an excellent job like i said and if you enjoy the rebel fm guys, the co-op guys are former collegues of them. Thanks again for reading my views.
I think the point most of us are trying to make is simply. Dont get you panties in a tangle of the race issue and we will all be the better for it. Sure we can discuss it but I think that there isnt much room for any type of outcry over these depictions. The freedom of speach only matters when your defending the worst kinds of speach. When we only defend the speach that we agree with or like, we basically become a facist police state in which none of us have freedom.
Hi Guys, I just want to give a personal thank you for your discussion of race in video games. I think it is a long overdue topic, and I am glad that you allowed your show to be a platform for a great discussion. I don’t really have a problem with the content in RE5. I think it’s about time that developers expand their ideas. I do have a problem with the developer changing a lot of the skin textures because of what people are saying. That is taking a step backward. The issue itself will help to grow the industry and they should stand by their product. Again, thank you so much for discussing this on your show.
BOTTOM LINE ON RACISM IN RE5.
You can buy the game if you want. You can not buy the game if you do not want it.
Vote with your dollar. The game sold a huge amount of copies. That tells me right there that racism wasn’t much of an issue.
I wrote about 5 more paragraphs but I decided to not post them because I think I am too angry just thinking about this and I might say something stupid. And this is not just racism in gaming that I am pissed off about. It’s when racism is brought up anywhere!
I would love it if African American’s worked on this game and stepped forward to shut N’Gai the hell up.
I am from Memphis, TN by the way . . . 63% African American, so I have to hear about this issue all the damn time.
Similarly, Birth of a Nation was hugely successful, so racism was obviously not much of a problem in the 1910s, right?
There’s more to the conversation than supporting what could be construed as an uncomfortable representation of race with a ‘vote.’
You make it sound like living in Memphis is a chore because you need to hear about race. Man, it’s a real issue, and it shouldn’t be an inconvenience to you.
And RE5’s sales aren’t dependent on how ‘racist’ it is or is not.
Geez…you all went way overboard with the racism issue. I know many black people who are NOT offended by it. How many times are people going to get offended by this and that? Do we have to change everything to cator to certain people even when its not unintentional?
“intentional”
I think the knee-jerk reaction to the whole race issue stems more from the side that is saying that the way race is depicted in resident evil is wrong or bad. It may be incorrect in some instances, but generally it creates a believable enviroment of a shanty town in some african nation. The most disturbing part is the people who think displaying africans in tradional tribal regalia is somehow a negative sterotype. That is thier culture, and by saying that displaying ones culture is wrong if it is counter to our own is racist in and of itself(the game explains how the virus causes people to rever to the carnal roots). Capcom should be held up for taking a risk on such a venture, not put down because this will only lead to less games including such content for the fear of reprocussions. The people who call this game racist, or even feel the need for more then a glancing discussion on the race issue within this game are those who purpetuate the idea that race is even a valid issue at all anymore. Growing up in a diverse community has allowed me to understand it is not an issue anymore in my mind, or rather that it shouldnt be. When people constantly nick pick at the issue they only purpetuate this culture of hate, instead of looking past the differences and seeing what we all have in common(i.e. were all human). Instead the media and society puts pressure on the white community for deeds committed 200 years ago. With all this finger pointing, its easy to see why some may react to this only with more hate, continuing to propigate the issue. I’m not trying to say that we should simply ignore the issue, but we shouldnt focus on it like its the most important thing in the world. IMO Race is an issue that should have died when Martin Luther King did, because it was his strugle(not for reparations, but simple equality) that settled the issue of race.
The issue of race is settled? Are you fucking kidding me? Have you ever turned on Fox News or looked at the way any right-wing media treats Barack Obama? Have you ever seen the statistics of black and Latino men in prison? Have you not heard about the anti-Semitic hate crimes that continue to happen throughout the industrialised world? Do you live in a tiny box with no windows?
“Have you not heard about the anti-Semitic hate crimes that continue to happen throughout the industrialised world?”
That’s based on religious differences not racial ones.
All the other ones are US problems - think about that.
Well, here in Canada there is pretty widespread racism against our aboriginal people, and racism against Arabs is pretty easy to see all over the place (Canada, U.S., Britain, France, etc.)
[...] Eat - Sleep - Game Area 5, Co-Op 0102 [...]
If you ever pull the fire alarm you are going to BURN IN HELL.
Loving it.
Love that middle track (Patent Pending by Heavens) definitely need to pick that up.
Nice job. Really enjoyed listening to it, especially right before Listen Up’s RE5 discussion (which was great as well).
I am just now listening to this podcast and I had to stop to make this comment. I guess the reason I don’t see racism in RE5 is because I’m not a racists.
Your link is not working and I’m itching to hear all the RE5 nonsense…please help with get a copy of the file!!!
By the way, you guys are great entertainment.
In this discussion you suggest that you do not think that RE5 is racist, giving some reasons such as its reasonably accurate depiction of Africa, and how it apply hallmarks of Resident Evil as normal in this new setting. In the ensuing discussion, you explain that your complaint is that it is insensitive to the racial associations that may offend American players, such as themes of imperialism, how the white man much solve the problems of the helpless black Africans, and such.
Taking a step back, your complaints are that a game (developed in Japan and distributed globally) is not changing its content to avoid offending its American audience.
The irony was so thick, you could cut it with a knife. Particularly when you complain about Spanish cultural imperialism.
No, it’s not Resident Evil 5 that needs to change. It’s American cultural attitudes. The people who should be offended, if anyone, are Africans. African-Americans, despite the name, have about as much to do with Africa as I do.
Asking a black American how they feel about RE5’s depiction of Africa is like asking William Shatner how to fly a space shuttle. That is, unless they are really African, like Nick.
awesome job playing the alkaline trio song toward the end of the podcast. love that band
Dang sarcastic gamer humpday called out Arthur hardcore on this topic. They might have done it in the wrong way, but i do not think they are totally unwarrented with their criticism.
Just started listning to you guys at episode 10 now im going to listen to all of them looking forward to your poitns and views about the games, Also thanks for having a link to zune to download your podcasts.
Great Podcast guys!
Regarding RE 5: I also don’t think that the people behind the game intended it to be racist - just like they did not intend to be racist when making RE 4. Then again, no one ever cared for the people getting infected and killed in RE 4 (which clearly took place in Spain), so why would anyone think differently about RE 5?
In my opinion, the game does not portray the whole African continent but rather one part of it where the game takes place. Most people don’t presume good faith when it comes to RE 5, but I don’t realize where all the racial issues suddenly come from. The game just takes place in Africa, and people there are black - so where does the argument really come from? Because these people are portrayed in very negative light? Well, it’s still a horror game (or at least a game that should make nervous) so the designers depicted the enemies as … enemies.
Again, I don’t see any difference between any other RE game (especially the fourth) and this one - apart from the skin colour of your enemies.
Interesting podcast, finally getting to listening to it. The RE5 discussion is extremely interesting. I was also super surprised and impressed to hear Matt Skiba’s (Alkaline Trio/Heavens) mellifluous voice during one of the breaks! Someone has really good taste.
I know I’m totally late to the party on this one, but just listened to Ep 11 (I’m backed up a bit…) and wanted to thank the RFM music director(s) for introducing me to The Spinto Band - what a catchy awesome album they’ve put out! Thanks again too, for another great podcast.